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22 November 2011 @ 11:53 am
Bleach 474 Spoilers  
Bleach 474 Spoilers

Also see Mezzo's snippet translation here and over here, and Estella May's translation snippet.

Ginjou says Ukitake is the guy behind all of it. Yes, Ukitake and not Urahara :3

People are freaking out on BA - in my honest opinion way prematurely.

I just want to remind everyone that Ginjou intentionally and deliberately screwed over Ichigo, manipulated and lied to him, used him, stole his powers, mocked him, and helped mindrape his friends.

Could Ginjou be telling the truth? Sure. Could he be telling a partial truth, mixed in with fiction, lies, evasion, and exaggeration? Could he be telling his version of the truth, one that he may personally believe but that may not actually reflect reality? Could he be (gasp) JUST LYING? Yes, yes, and yes.

I don't get why so many Bleach fans are quick to trust villains and bad guys, taking them at their word even after all the crap they've done, yet characters like Isshin, Urahara, and Ukitake are assumed to be the "real enemies," despite all the good that they've done, for no reason other than "oh, they were always shady". In Ukitake's case, I think it's more people are in love with the "he's another Aizen" twist. Again, all three characters have helped Ichigo and his friends; I'm more willing to trust their past actions than some newcomer who's power-hungry and crazy and going "lol I know I lied to you for ages about everything, but hey, TRUST ME THIS TIME". Yet some Bleach fans seem to be going, "Yeah, Ginjou! Yeah, I believe you!"

Anyway, even IF Ginjou is telling a complete truth, that doesn't excuse him for what he's done to Ichigo and his friends. Ginjou wasn't "helping" Ichigo, a fellow shinigami substitute; Ginjou wasn't fighting against the system. Ginjou was looking out for himself, period. Ginjou obviously has a clear motive to screw with Ichigo to knock his guard down.

Some healthy doubt is all I wish Bleach fans would have. You know, take a wait-and-see approach, rather than instantly jumping off the edge because Ginjou said it was five feet from the ground with a soft cushion underneath it. Maybe at least go take a look off the ledge (and mind your back so you don't get pushed).

I personally seriously doubt Ukitake is the mastermind villain behind all of this. I DO think he knew the badges were monitoring devices (hence why Ichigo heard Rukia's voice from the badge), but that alone doesn't make Ukitake out to be an Evil Terrible Person.

As Mezzo said in the thread, though, at least the theories that come out of this will be entertaining. :3

brightelephonebrightelephone on November 22nd, 2011 05:02 pm (UTC)
Are these spoilers confirmed?
qwirky on November 22nd, 2011 05:05 pm (UTC)
Yes, they are confirmed.
brightelephone: Ukitake: 8Dbrightelephone on November 22nd, 2011 05:10 pm (UTC)
Ok, thanks. :)

Then... WOW. I don't really BELIEVE what Ginjou's claiming, but I guess it could be possible. Kubo likes characters that turn out to be the opposite of how they first seem, after all. But still. it's coming from Ginjou, who isn't the most trustworthy person in the world.
Running on Coffee and Schadenfreudearcadiasilver on November 22nd, 2011 05:12 pm (UTC)
The thing is, I think Ginjou and thus the audience is taking things the wrong way. Remember that Ginjou is a bad actor, so he might not be lying. And honestly, with Ishida there (who questioned the badge's purpose the instant he saw it), what purpose does he have in lying? His gambit is revealed, he has no reason to hide.

The badge was meant to be a monitoring device. So? It would be completely irresponsible for SS to NOT keep close tabs on Ichigo. The boy has enough power to stalemate a captain, has bankai, and gained as much within only months. Letting him run around the living world without at least keeping an eye on him is irresponsible to the core.

And considering the previous daikou was Ginjou? I'd say their paranoia is justified. This does not make Ukitake or SS necessarily bad guys, but it does go to further enforce that SS will do whatever it damn well pleases to further its goals and protect its interests. Not a bad thing, certainly not a good thing, but morally ambiguous.
brightelephone: Orihime: Tastybrightelephone on November 22nd, 2011 05:15 pm (UTC)
Danielwdboldstar on November 22nd, 2011 05:26 pm (UTC)
Yeah, people seem to forget that SS isn't necessarily a force for good. They WERE going to execute Rukia, they DO employ twisted mad scientists like Mayuri and bloodthirsty berserkers like Kenpachi, and most of the souls they "save" get to live in primitive, sometimes squalid pre-medieval conditions outside the gates of Seretei.

They're much closer to Lawful Neutral (with the odd jaunt into Lawful Evil) than any of the Good Alignments.

That said, I'm sure Ginjou is overreacting or misinterpreting stuff in some way, but at the same time, don't consider SS automatically above-board Lawful Good. They're far from it.
qwirky on November 22nd, 2011 05:41 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure that "bad acting" has a strong relation to lying. Ginjou didn't think he could long-term lie to Ichigo, pretending to be his friend, so he was cut. This is a different situation.

Ginjou has plenty of reasons to lie - namely convincing Ichigo that he has no reason to fight Ginjou, and Ichigo should instead be questioning his allies and friends from Soul Society, as well as his pride in being a shinigami. It is exactly what Aizen tried to do (lol, you no reason to fight me). That's a huge psychological advantage in this fight. Ginjou really has no reason to "help" Ichigo out; Ginjou wasn't interested in that before, why would he start now? The reason is to manipulate Ichigo. Ishida acknowledges the power of Ginjou's words by saying Ichigo wouldn't be able to accept that "reality"; Ishida believes Ginjou, it seems, but whether Ginjou is telling the truth or lying, what he said is screwing with Ichigo's mental state.

Anyway, I did mention in my post: "Could he be telling his version of the truth, one that he may personally believe but that may not actually reflect reality?" So I don't disagree that Ginjou could be simply stating what he believes; however, his belief doesn't necessarily, or at least completely, reflect reality.
tick-tockingscuttling on November 22nd, 2011 09:54 pm (UTC)
Yeah, honestly, I'm more surprised Ishida is freaking out so much about it. The Quincy were monitored for as long as they've been around, and while obviously thanks to Mayuri that ended up badly, it isn't as though it makes no damn sense for SS to be monitoring someone of Ichigo's level. Their representative on earth.
peca_06peca_06 on November 22nd, 2011 05:41 pm (UTC)
Even if Ginjou half truths have any bearings, he is over-dramatizing it and all because he probably wants all his power to do as he pleases. Ginjou is the very definition of an OUT OF CONTROL shinigami substitute. He is not to be trusted and I'm sure he is not telling what he did in the past or why he went rogue. If I were the SS, I wouldn't just give badges to such people without a warranty.

Ichigo is a nice guy, but the SS does well by not trusting everyone. They have to have a good reason for this, Ukitake might've been worried about giving out badges without keeping some control over the whole thing and Urahara was expecting Ginjou to spill the beans, therefore coming clean to him and explain things later. Nothing to hide anymore.

They came to help Ichigo and gave him his powers back FFS. That is a vote of confidence, is it not?
I think Ginjou sees the SS and Ukitake as villains because they dare put a restraint/leash on him and is trying to make Ichigo jump on board with his POV since he is also a shinigami substitute himself. Pulling the victim card.
What Ginjou did to Ichigo and his whole family and nakama is despicable and nothing he says and does will change that perception of him.

I hope Ichigo keeps his cool through this and I'm glad Ishida is right there with him to ground him. Ichigo's mental/psychological stability is still a bit shaky.

incandescensincandescens on November 22nd, 2011 05:43 pm (UTC)
Agreed. I would not trust Ginjou to give me the time of day, let alone a full explanation of why he's the good guy and why Ukitake (of all people) is the bad guy.
qwirky on November 22nd, 2011 08:46 pm (UTC)
I agree with this post. Maybe we'll learn otherwise, but I'm not going to jump to conclusions that Ginjou is telling the complete truth. Did SS respond to Ginjou becoming corrupted, or did SS do something and Ginjou became bitter because of it? Either way, it doesn't excuse what Ginjou's done to Ichigo, and Ichigo shouldn't trust him.

Edited at 2011-11-22 08:48 pm (UTC)
incandescensincandescens on November 22nd, 2011 05:41 pm (UTC)
Pfui. I believe this about as much as Ginjou's "I will tell you the dark truth behind your father" line.

I can believe that the badge is a monitoring device of some sort. It's also possible that Ukitake is supposed to supervise/be in charge of anyone who's a substitute shinigami. (And heaven knows that Ichigo doesn't like the thought of any sort of "supervision".)

Given Ginjou's (and Tsukishima's) behaviour so far, I am disinclined to take their word for anything.
mikados on November 22nd, 2011 05:48 pm (UTC)
It did surprise me to see Ukitake's name popping up, of all people. But it doesn't make him evil in any way, it's just Ginjou who wants to put the senior captain in a bad light. It makes sense that the gotei 13 monitors Ichigo, he is quite a wildcard after all. Still it makes me much more interested in Ginjou's past and how he was involved with the shinigami.
kaibasgirl on November 22nd, 2011 06:54 pm (UTC)
"I think it's more people are in love with the "he's another Aizen" twist."

Well, if you think about it, Ukitake did seem to be closest to Aizen, and his question at the end of SS arc seemed to be a rather interesting one.

"What are you trying to do?"

"To go higher."

"Have you lost yourself in the process?"

"You are too arrogant Ukitake. No one starts out on top. Not me, not you, not anyone...etc."

Sorry, it's not a perfect quote because I'm doing this from memory, but that small snippet between Aizen and Ukitake had always intrigued me. It would be rather interesting to see if Kubo's going to expound on it a little more.

Also, the fight between Kaien and the hollow, and how Ukitake wouldn't let Rukia interfere--that ALWAYS bothered me, how he never stepped in, never tried to help his VC. If he's such a nice, great guy, why would he let his VC sacrifice himself that way? Sure, pride is something, but I could never understand how Ukitake could let pride take precedence over a person's life. Sure, Kaien's ego may have gotten bruised, but the important thing was that he was still alive.

And Ichigo does have a connection to Kaien, we all know that. And then there's Aizen's line to him, on how everything in Ichigo's life had been planned out from the start. And we see that Ukitake was the one who gave Ichigo his badge.

So, what does all this amount to? A lot of conspiracy theories which mostly are conjecture. But there are some unanswered questions floating around, and it looks like a conspiracy theory is what's going to tie everything together.

That's not to say, of course, that Ginjou or Aizen are good people. Or that they honestly want what's best for Ichigo. Their priority has been and always will be themselves. But for the most part, when they spit out things like this, there's usually a grain of truth to it.

Also, even if everything I just wrote could be rejected, you DO have to admit, the fact that Ginjou picked Ukitake, out of ALL the captains in SS, is pret-ty interesting. I mean, why Ukitake? Why not Mayuri, who is by far a more shady character? Why not Komamura, who usually keeps to himself? Or Kyoraku, who's easy going, perverted, booze-loving exterior belies a shrewd and shadowy personality? Even his shikai would lend credence to his being involved in something jaded.

I seriously can't wait for this chapter to read it for myself and draw my own conclusions!
oh gallant piglet,: kurosakiaizome on November 22nd, 2011 07:00 pm (UTC)
"People are freaking out on BA - in my honest opinion way prematurely."

What's new? They do it every week. ;)

It's an interesting twist though. I've never trusted Ginjou for even a second, and this doesn't change that. But it will be interesting to find out what the actual truth is here.

On a lighter note: Isshin in the chapter! Hell yes!
Rubica: soifon spinetherpants on November 22nd, 2011 07:33 pm (UTC)
I don't think Ukitake is straight up evil or even deep into the evil-o-meter if at all. However, it would be a weird move for Ginjou to try and psych Ichigo out and set him against Ukitake. I can certainly see Ginjou gettin screwed over by Soul Society through Ukitake and developing a grudge. Also, last time Ginjou lied about what was going on he honestly believed he was telling the truth. Isshin and Urahara seem to believe that whatever he's telling Ichigo is going to be the truth.
Danielwdboldstar on November 22nd, 2011 07:50 pm (UTC)
Another thought.

Rukia's pretty close to Ukitake, and she's now possibly possessed by a Fullbringer. Could it turn out that this is a part of Ginjou's plan too?
astridstarr00astridstarr00 on November 22nd, 2011 08:02 pm (UTC)
Seems like it's being made a little more dramatic than what it should be. SS has always been in the grey area, so that's nothing new. And I don't think it's necessarily evil of SS to want to monitor the daikou.
I mean would anyone give that kind of responsibility to just anyone?

Plus, at that time they didn't really know Ichigo, or at least the higher ups didn't. And if Ginjou is any indication, then it might not of been a terrible decision to make.

However, we still don't know all the facts such as what happens if the daikou are proven to be "useless." Nor do we know how distorted Ginjou's views on the subject are.

Guess we'll just have to wait for the next couple of chapters.
♀*La Muerte Chiquita*♀: ishichila_kalaka on November 22nd, 2011 09:37 pm (UTC)
I though the same about Ukitake, my friends are just going crazy and calling Ukitake: EL ES EL MAAAAAAL XDDDD (he is evilness personified) wut?! x_D

As Qwirky and Others has said, why to believe a guy who has lied and do all of that kind of shit to Ichigo?? why now? when Ukitake has been helping him all the way along?

I just can say that in Ishida's case, well he is a Quincy and SS hasn't been kind with him and nor has been near Ginjou as Ichigo has been. So in part I can understand that Ishida got worried for Ichigo. How much Ishida believes this, that's what I want to see and looks like Ichigo doesn't want to listen Uryuu -3-
tick-tocking: BLEACH ☂ just as plannedscuttling on November 22nd, 2011 10:04 pm (UTC)
Lmf, as I note below, Ichigo should just be glad it isn't observational bacteria. Or something worse.
kohi_no_torakohi_no_tora on November 22nd, 2011 09:59 pm (UTC)
Personal thought

Ginjo is telling the truth. However he is putting as much negative spin on it as possible, making a fairly benign way of Soul Society monitoring allied assets, run by one of its nicer, more reasonable senior members, into some sort of conspiracy.
tick-tockingscuttling on November 22nd, 2011 09:59 pm (UTC)
LOL, how is this a big surprise? From Ishida's early suspicions to the badge "speaking" to now, the fact it is a monitoring device is practical and very far from the pinnacle of evil. Yes, they should have told him and it's a gray area, but if Ichigo is about to really buy into this as told by the guy who manipulated him, orchestrated the pain and mind-control of his friends, and took his powers, when Soul Society and their bonds have not only been emphasized but been directly responsible for the return of his powers... lol boy is just too dumb.

I don't see why Ishida thinks this would totally rock Ichigo's world, that he wouldn't be able to handle it, why he's flipping... but I hope Ichigo's saying shut up to Ginjou, cos seriously o_O.
tick-tockingscuttling on November 22nd, 2011 10:03 pm (UTC)
Also, I know Ishida is Mr. "Violating my Human Rights!!!" but this is a far cry from Mayuri's observational bacteria which is probably STILL INSIDE HIM.

So, you know... it could be worse.
mezzo_marinaiomezzo_marinaio on November 22nd, 2011 11:25 pm (UTC)
peca_06: FUFUFUpeca_06 on November 22nd, 2011 11:36 pm (UTC)
LMAO! You put into a comic strip my thoughts earlier in twitter XDDD. Maybe he can't heal with Kido??? . It has to be something else Urahara doesn't want him to interfere with :P
mezzo_marinaiomezzo_marinaio on November 22nd, 2011 11:59 pm (UTC)
Well, the new translation makes it sound more reasonable. XD

Though the power play is certainly there, lol... it reminds me a little of Isshin and Ryuuken. :P
saiechan: UlquiHimesaiechan on November 23rd, 2011 12:21 am (UTC)
Ginjou is the villain.

He can't be trusted. His words can't be taken at face value.

Still find it shocking and funny that it's Ukitake of all people, but Ginjou could be speaking of a half-truth. The man is clearly insane and could warping the view to fit his personal beliefs. He could be keeping certain parts out just to satisfy his needs or illusions, whatever. I'm going to wait until this is all settled.

Good thing for Ishida. He is the grounded one in this duo. XD