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10 February 2011 @ 07:10 pm
"Hey, Fullbringing" or a post on the roots of Fullbringing as portrayed in the last 5 chapters  
Yo. It's time for my yearly 'Possibly somewhat useful' post. Expect nothing coherent from me for the rest of the year.

Just wanted to touch bases with people for a bit on the subject of Fullbringing, and the causes thereof. With Chad's explanation of how 'pride' figured into his supposed awakening as a Fullbringer, I noticed a lot of people were looking at Ichigo's level ding and going 'Hey wait where does pride fit into this?' Short answer? It probably doesn't.



Long hypothesis:

Based on the phrasing of the JP raw and the subsequent (good) English translations, from what I can gather Fullbringing works like this.

Person A that has experienced Hollow contamination has a strong personal attachment to an item/feature that stems from either either own taste or inclinations, their feelings, or feelings brought about by another person or event. Due to the strong personal emotions or symbolism attached to that particular object, they are able to influence the 'soul' of the item, because they have an affinity to it.

Riruka loves cute things. Obsessed with them, to the point of wanting to be crushed to death by cute stuff. She channels this overwhelming affection for specific cute items into her dollhouse. She calls it love, which confuses the hell out of Ichigo, but what she means by that is that the dollhouse becomes the focus for her feelings of love for cute things-- not that she actually LOVES the dollhouse. The dollhouse is an important item to her clearly, but it's what the dollhouse represents that is the important thing here, just as Chad's skin is the symbol to him of his pride in his heritage and of his grandfather. If you wanted to extrapolate from this you could probably come up with some pretty interesting backstories for Creepy Time Butler and Ramen Guy.

Ichigo when first told about Riruka loving the dollhouse is understandably a little put off, and tries to explain that he can't really say that he loves his badge, or is necessarily extremely fond of it, but he keeps it on his person at all times. Chad, trying to phrase this in a way Ichigo will understand, explains his motivations for being able to Fullbring (pride connected to his grandfather) and tells Ichigo that he needs to think of a time when he was proud to be a shinigami, and the badge will respond to his memories. Ichigo flips through a catalogue in his brain of all the times he was proud to be a shinigami, thinks about how there's too many, then hits on a specific memory and Fullbrings his badge.

The unifying trait in all of these examples isn't 'pride', it's strong emotion brought about by a single catalyst with a beloved object associated with those emotions serving as the focus for them. We've only got three concrete examples of 'reasons to Fullbring' so far in the manga-- Riruka's love of certain cute objects, Chad's intense emotions related to his grandfather, and Ichigo. When Riruka Fullbrings her dollhouse, she's thinking of all the cute things in the world she loves. The first time Chad was able to Fullbring his arm, he was thinking of his grandfather. Ichigo tries several different memories before hitting on one that allows him to utilize his ability, and the memory that kicks it off isn't really related to 'pride' in context. Thus the confusion.

I've had people go into the whole "KUBO IS FULLBRINGING THE SOUL OF THE HEART" and "So Ramen Dude must have really loved that liquor to Fullbring it out of the glass" jokes. (I laughed at THE HEART one admittedly.) My going theory so far is that once you learn to Fullbring the soul of your focus item, using your superpowers to manipulate objects far less important to you probably becomes easy. Even liquor. Even liquor. EVEN LIQUOR.

Short theory: A powerful impulse, experience or emotion tied to a physical object are the catalysts for Fullbring.

Something you'd like to add? Fullbring the soul of the comment box and manifest your powers unto me.


 
 
 
Kim!: Mushroom Mushroomspartydragon on February 11th, 2011 12:15 am (UTC)
THIS.

...

Yep, that's all I've got to say. X)
(Deleted comment)
Grenat: Yayescarboucle on February 11th, 2011 12:50 am (UTC)
*thumbs up*
oh gallant piglet,: chadaizome on February 11th, 2011 12:51 am (UTC)
Spot-on.

There really is no "love" versus "pride" thing going on here at all. It's all a matter of what works for each fullbringer, and how they label it. Riruka calls it "love". For Chad, it's pride. But both love and pride fit into the same category you brought up here.

*adds post to memories*
eris4: YellowRoseeris4 on February 11th, 2011 12:54 am (UTC)
Oh my, I posted my comment while I was still trying to word it in a decent english, LOL. Sorry if I had to delete it :/

Yeah, that's pretty much what it was implied. When I read the chapter I was confused at first because Rukia's departure didn't fit with the pride Chad was talking about and therefore with the memories Ichigo was thinking of. So thanks for put into words what Rukia's role was in that panel.
incandescensincandescens on February 11th, 2011 12:57 am (UTC)
This fits my theories too, and it fits with Hollows.

Hollows are obsessive. Usually obsessively hungry, but it can be obsessively jealous/possessive/needy/demanding/proud. (Look at some of the Arrancar, Espada, and Hollows we've seen.)

Fullbring is about something which is vitally important/obsession/necessary to the user. Without his ability to protect others, Ichigo is a hollow man (metaphorically speaking). He needs it.
oh gallant piglet,: lilynetteaizome on February 11th, 2011 01:05 am (UTC)
Whoa. Excellent point!
(no subject) - vayshti on February 11th, 2011 01:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - spartydragon on February 11th, 2011 02:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - manonlechat on February 11th, 2011 02:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - wdboldstar on February 11th, 2011 03:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nivek01 on February 11th, 2011 04:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - eframepilot on February 11th, 2011 05:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Running on Coffee and Schadenfreude: [Avatar] The world in a new viewarcadiasilver on February 11th, 2011 01:58 am (UTC)
Feel free to ignore this, I'm rambling.
Pretty much sums it up. I think that too many people were hung up on the "Love v. Pride" deal and failed to see the common denominator. Kubo explained something, but kinda explained it without providing further examples from the other Fullbringers. Two anecdata does not a good sample make.

But I'm also struck by the fundamental differences between the Hollow/Fullbringer powers and shinigami powers (makes me wonder if there's a special name for shinigami/human hybrids and if they have unique powers of their own). The former are instinctive, emotional and impulsive, tied to THE HEART and all its emotions, good or bad. Shinigami powers require discipline, control, and precision. As we've seen with Ichigo, while some of it can be extrapolated from instinct/feeling as Ichigo has done, most shinigami skills require training and instruction. See the Dangai and Isshin's brief monologue concerning Jinzen and communicating with his zanpakutou willfully and how Ichigo lacks that fundamental training and instruction that all shinigami receive.

Renji's comment to Rukia during her arrest about her human expressions has a whole new meaning to it now.
never give up!  ৵  never surrender!: (bleach) ichiruki fascinating.loquaciousquark on February 11th, 2011 03:56 am (UTC)
Thank you for this post! It's actually helped me a lot as far as understanding the powers and how pride (doesn't) apply in Ichigo's case. However, there's still something I'm not really sure of--why can Ichigo utilize Fullbring at all? I thought only people whose mothers were attacked by Hollow had that power--but Ichigo's mother wasn't attacked until after he was born. So how are they so sure that he's got this ability at all? Or is it that he can use it because they're giving him theirs or

idek man, I do not get it
Kim!: Mushroom Mushroomspartydragon on February 11th, 2011 04:21 am (UTC)
I'm gonna assume it's cause he's half shinigami. Living dead boy, yanno.
(no subject) - eframepilot on February 11th, 2011 05:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on February 11th, 2011 12:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nivek01 on February 11th, 2011 02:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - loquaciousquark on February 11th, 2011 10:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
qwirky on February 11th, 2011 03:57 am (UTC)
Agreed with everything in this post. Not only is there a large and obvious disconnect between Riruka's and Chad's explanations for their Fullbring powers (I guess one could argue that Riruka is "proud" of cute things, but I think that explanation would be stretching), but also the image/memory of Rukia simply doesn't fit into the notion/concept of "pride."

People have claimed that Rukia is "proud" of Ichigo not needing her anymore (which makes no sense because Ichigo has just lost his powers - why would Rukia be proud of that?), or Ichigo being proud of not needing Rukia any longer (again, he's just lost his powers), or Ichigo remembering Rukia not as an individual but instead as a symbol for his shinigami powers, but if any of those explanations were true, then Kubo would not have drawn a brand new panel of Rukia with that sad expression on her face as she's disappearing. There is nothing in the Rukia panel to indicate any kind of "pride," either on the part of Ichigo or Rukia, and the sadness and emotion conveyed in the panel obviously contradict the claim that Rukia is nothing more than a symbol of Ichigo's powers. The scene depicted is a bittersweet, painful moment, one that deeply affected Ichigo and still does (such that he thinks that Rukia hasn't visited him in 17 months, and lies to Keigo about not missing her).

Since the Rukia panel doesn't fit with the idea of "pride," either Chad was mistaken as to that being the trigger for Fullbring, or else pride was just Chad's personal trigger and each Fullbringer has his/her own unique trigger/catalyst.
nivek01nivek01 on February 11th, 2011 04:23 am (UTC)
This would actually fit in really well with the "hollow" like powers. Though each hollow loses their heart for different reasons, their powers are similar, if not the same. In the same way, each fullbringer activates their powers differently. Another example of this is Giriko-he doesn't seem to be in love with his watch or his powers, and from the way he described the punishment delivered by the God of Time, I don't think he's proud of his powers either. It seems like more for him, the watch embodies punctuality, and he finds that important.

Also, as far as the liquor manipulation goes-remember when Ginjou was explaining Fullbring. It seems like a lot of people who are confused about this power just ignored what he said. So, I will re-explain, adding in the new information we received this chapter:

Fullbring is a TWO FOLD ability. At it's basic level, you have the ability to manipulate souls, to power them up and make them bend to your will. This is how Ginjou made the liquor fly to his mouth, how "Bookman" was able to fly from the roof to the pole, then suddenly fly backwards into Ishida, things like that. It is a parallel to the basic Arrancar abilities-Cero, Garganta, that sort of thing-along with the shinigami's kido.
However, if one trains with Fullbring enough, and has a high affinity with an object, they can transform its' shape and power its' soul to new heights. That is what is going on with the Shinigami badge; Ichigo has, for the first time in 17 months, powerfully reflected on his life as a Shinigami, and the emotions that go with that are going into the badge, which is now going to change shape because of the power overload. These objects (Dollhouse, Time Tells No Lies, Right Arm of the Giant, Ginjou's Pendant) are like zanpacktuo. They are unique to each individual, in both shape and power.

Speaking of Ichigo, by the way, there is a common theme in the panels. It's Ichigo's desire to protect. He wanted to protect Orihime from her brother. He wanted to protect Chad from the hollow after his parakeet. He protected his sisters from Grand Fisher. He protected Ishida by fighting the army of hollows with him, and later scaring the Gillian. He protected Rukia from the Sokuyoku. He protected the entire Karakura from Aizen. The final panel is slightly more debateable, but Rukia going to SS has never been a good thing in Ichigo's eyes. And look at what Rukia's doing in the final panel. Going to SS.

Just thought I'd add my few dollars.
(no subject) - athena799 on February 11th, 2011 09:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on February 11th, 2011 12:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nivek01 on February 11th, 2011 02:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on February 11th, 2011 04:15 am (UTC)
You know, if I had to associate that panel of Rukia there and what Ichigo might have felt at the time with one word, I'd pick Yearning. Well, that is if we go with the strong emotion thing.

Ichigo yearns to be a shinigami again, he yearns to have his powers back, he yearns to be able to see shinigami, he yearns to see Rukia again.

At least that's how it looks to me. Regardless whether he loves her or not as more than a friend. BTH Ichigo's eyes when looking at Rukia, or thinking of her, reminds me an awful lot of the guy who is in love with me (Don't worry, it is mutual, but I can't say boyfriend, since we are taking our sweet time getting together, even though we are proper adults. We just kinda agreed (not in words actually) that there was no reason to hurry, and we should enjoy slowly getting closer, and getting to know each other better. And he never once said that he loved me (nor did I tell him anything like that, we did not even venture as far as saying I really like you or something), but I can still see it in his eyes, and I have no doubts. And we have been on several dates, although it was never once stated that those were dates, but there was no need, as it was clear to both of us, so why waste words? (Don't misunderstand, both of us are outgoing and talkative.) So I can pretty much confirm for you first hand, that there are people who need no actual verbal confirmation of someone's love, but still know, and have a working relationship. For example I would be not surprised at all if there was no actual confession between Ichigo and Rukia, nor would I care about a kiss. If I see them at the end next to each other, maybe even holding hands or saying that they will stay by the others side, that would be more than enough for me to happily assume that they ended up together and there will be a marriage and some IchiRuki offspring at some point. I used to want to see an IchiRuki kiss, but my relationship has taught me that it matters not. I just want them to survive the manga, and be able to stay by each other's side. That guarantees an Ichiruki ending for me. Although a glimpse at their offspring would still be nice :P And meh, I babbled... ignore this thing in brackets, I'm horrible. Oh yeah and I made Valentines Day chocolates, I hope they turned out nice and my person will like them...)
marheavenangel: Fangirlmarheavenangel on February 11th, 2011 06:18 am (UTC)
Can I marry this post 8D?! Because it's awesome!
mrdracospirit on February 11th, 2011 10:32 am (UTC)
Orihime fits with the theory as well :)
The Main Gauche of Enlightenment: Kneesocks glasses pushvelvetsword on February 11th, 2011 12:36 pm (UTC)
I was wondering when someone was going to mention the hairpins.

I left her out of the post because I was OK with the previous explanation of 'The Hougyoku gave them their abilities because they hated being weak' and I'm not entirely sure Orihime is a Fullbringer, but you could certainly draw a pattern in her abilities.

Speculating-- If Orihime is a Fullbringer, her 'beloved object' would of course be her hairpins, and the emotion she ties to them would be her feelings of loss and regret over her brother's death, leading to her 'rejection' ability.
(no subject) - karenai on February 11th, 2011 03:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on February 11th, 2011 09:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
The Main Gauche of Enlightenment: Scanty is suave (rose)velvetsword on February 11th, 2011 09:32 pm (UTC)
because this post (and the following comments) really did clear the whole wtfness of Fullbring up

Then my purpose in writing it has been served.

Also 'It's Kubo, I ain't gotta explain shit' is a phrase that will serve you well at many junctures in your time following Bleach. Treasure it. (-___-)b
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 11th, 2011 04:47 pm (UTC)
Hey Guildy, thanks for the post. I passed out exhausted before reading last night but I wanted in on the orgy on your brain. I realize the rest of you is spoken for,alas.

I missed some of the discussion with you guys on the fullbringer triggers yesterday but did manage an exchange with Neha about the similarities between love and pride and how some guys(e.g. Byakuya, maybe Chad) refer to pride peripherally when they made be more specifically referring to love. I decided love/pride/wrath were aspects of the HEART and emotions that trigger fullbring. Afterwards, fullbringers merely assign a name to their power that may or may not be precisely what triggered their powers (Is Riruka's really love? Sounds like fascination--or SQUEE)

After this conclusion (both pride and love stem from the same source) I skipped to the Orihime FC at BA where I was told that Chad's pride advice > Riruka's love advice. After being bombarded there with PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE (seven times I think, highlighted in yellow) I tried to further the notion you mentioned above that "KUBO IS FULLBRINGING THE SOUL OF THE HEART" and it didn't seem to go over to well.

Then the notion was furthered that emotions triggering the fullbring were akin to something like Orihime's urge to protect. Seeing as how Ichigo is identified with protection, not pride, and Orihime is identified with love, not pride and how she's still struggling now to protect those she loves, something struck me as really off here--

One poster had pointed out that Orihime's reactivation of her magical barrette powers had occurred when telling Yoruichi that she wanted to protect Ichigo and then I and then another poster here with panels noted the similarity to Ichigo manifesting his fullbring after recalling Rukia. In fact, Orihime had first recalled Tatsuki before Ichigo--just as Ichigo had recalled other scenes before his big panel of Rukia.

Basically, I wrote this (copy-pasta because I'm too lazy to retype):

in response to Nocturne's panels that showed Orihime's activating her powers in response to saying she would protect Ichigo. I beg to differ that the impulse was "I protect"--as in the case with "pride" the true motivator was love.

Orihime loves Ichigo (and yeah wants to protect him--that's all part of it) therefore her powers activated.

Chad loves his grandfather (yeah call it pride, whatever, Chad, in your heritage--that's all part of it) therefore his powers activated.

Ichigo loves Rukia (although he may not actually know it yet and yeah, he's proud of his Shinigami identity given to him by her and he's proud of having protected people--that's all part of it) and his powers activated.

In this case, I'm not even speaking about romantic love, mind you. I am talking about a strong emotion. My point is that the Fullbring ability comes from the same source (the heart) and even Butler-dude's wrath will be shown to be from there--pride, wrath, love--all aspects of the heart. And I do believe that there was intentional overlap and resonance in the terms in this chapter and not the absolute literalness some people want it mean. There is, after all, no black and white in Bleach (despite the constant harping by Kubo on the theme---Black Moon, White Moon, whatever--it all comes to degrees of moral ambiguity when Hollow are like human, etc). The literalness reminds me of when people claim that characters are either friends or they are lovers--as if there is no middle ground. "They are friends! They are friends!" Characters can exist on a spectrum in terms of their relationships to one another.

...

But before I draw a Venn diagram, I think you get my point. It's too simple to say "The heart is about friendship" or "this chapter is about pride" or even "Orihime is Ichigo's friend." To do so would be to miss a lot of the wonderful subtleties and layers of the story.


THE HEART.

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY and no, Kubo won't leave the freaking heart alone. He's going to ride this baby like a pacemaker on cocaine until BLEACH gives us all the love we didn't get from our parents!

Edited at 2011-02-11 04:51 pm (UTC)
dekinai_yodekinai_yo on February 11th, 2011 05:37 pm (UTC)
You know, I hadn't really thought much about Kubo's penchant for the black/white theme - maybe just because it never seemed off, but now that you mention it and I wonder why it never felt heavy-handed, I think it works as well as it does because it just serves as a frame for everything that goes on between two extremes, which is really at the heart of the whole story. It's the struggle that goes on in the gray areas between two ends that make everything so interesting. Ishida's Quincy pride is not whole without the forgiving nature he learned from his grandfather; Chad's strength doesn't complete him without the kindness his grandfather taught him to have; Orihime's loving nature/desire to protect is as of yet incomplete because she hasn't figured out how to balance it; hollows are what they are because they've lost their hearts; Ichigo's power to protect, without which he was miserable from his mother's death until the beginning of the story, was sparked by Rukia, and Rukia's own crushing guilt over Kaien's death and inability to feel any sense of self-worth was alleviated by her ability to save Ichigo and his family on that first night, and then further by his rescuing her against all odds. Of course, Ichigo and Rukia initially 'completed' each other in a more literal sense, but in the long run but it seems that they remain each other's complement mostly because they need/care about each other so much rather than because they are actually incapable of doing what drives them without the other. He no longer literally needs her like he did in the beginning in order to have the power to protect, yet somehow he still needs her. It's agony anticipating the moments where his conscious realization of this will unfold. Now I'm wondering how it is exactly that the Fullbringers have been thrown off-balance - it would explain why their power is a bad thing, as far as they're concerned, I guess.
Wow, that was almost entirely off-topic, wasn't it? Sorry!
http://www.google.com/profiles/Alicegaogladhttp://www.google.com/profiles/Alicegaoglad on February 19th, 2011 12:55 am (UTC)
honestly though- i don't feel surprised by the fullbringer theory- its just another plot ticket- that kubo has bent forwards and backwards to fit the themes.

I mean this entire new arc is moving like a skewed mirror image of the very very first bleach arc- hueco mundo to seiretei if you will. Kubo of course is doing this on purpose- but I'm getting tired of him repeatedly using his settings this way.