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27 December 2010 @ 06:21 am
A Proposition to All of You  
Alrighty. So, I've been thinking for a while, and I've decided that venting is a wonderful thing. And that my overactive mind is great at picking up on small details and spinning them into huge foreshadowing moments. And I think I need all your help.

See, I'm a bit (...okay, a big) theorist. I love discussing theories, symbols, foreshadows, plot twists, the like. I'm sure everyone does, to a certain extent. My question is, shall we do it as a group activity?

I'm thinking of starting a group, dedicated to theorizing. Analyzing a chapter, looking it over, and wondering where Kubo-sensei could possibly be heading. But it's no fun to do alone, just because all my family and friends have denied me the topic of Bleach, and unfortunately, my theory buddy and I have been forced out of contact. So now I turn to you all. How about we put our heads together and try and predict where Bleach is going?

More information.

This would be different from the normal chapter discussions that go on in one way; instead of jumping up and down in celebration over the awesome parts of the new chapter (something I enjoy doing as well), it'd be more of a "How could this impact the next chapter? Or ten chapters?" I really do wonder if the things I pick up on are just my brain going off in odd directions for possible story lines (writing fanfic's can do that to you) or if what I say has some merit-of if I've missed anything.

On top of discussing possible theories, something I think would be fun is coming up with group theories. Like, taking the extra step; beyond discussing what could happen, actually saying that this is what we believe is going to happen. And then applying that in the next chapter. So, for example, say in chapter X Rukia appears and says something about Ichigo making a mistake by underestimating her, and after some discussion, we agree that she's implying she has Bankai. In chapter X+1, if there's anything that could remotely have anything to do with that theory, I'll talk about it. So if Rukia shows more proficiency in her Shikai (a sign of Bankai-Ichigo wasn't able to consciously use Getsuga Tensho to it's full power before he attained Bankai) while fighting, I'll add that to our theory. If, in chapter X+5, she talks about doing a lot of training-add to the theory. If a chapter later we find out it was all for some Kido spell-we edit or get rid of the Bankai theory. That sort of thing.

Now, here's the drawback-for this to be successful, there's going to have to be a lot of communication, between everyone that would want to post. If you see someone post a theory and have a comment, say it. I can't know if you all agree on a point or not if you don't comment on each other's posts. Also, this is going to require more then just two or three people; the best debates are done by many people of differening interests. I'm not used to dealing with large fandoms, so forgive me if this is a little small, but I figure if ten people say they'd like to do something like this, then starting at the next chapter, I'll post a discussion.

If you all give me the green light for this, then my posts will be fairly simple. I'll do a quick analysis of the chapter (which you should disagree with if you think I'm wrong on anything-don't just take my word on things as a base), state my current theory on where things could go, and some 'food for thought' prompts. Something to get you thinking. I'll use the most recent chapter (432) as an example.

Though I'm not going to be typing out my analysis on everything that has happened (because I'd like this to be less then 200,000+ words) A couple things got me thinking.

-Before Chad is re-introduced, Riruka said "Who died and made you king...?" to Ginjou, in response to him ordering her around. So, does that mean that Ginjou wasn't always boss?

-It is implied that every member of Xcution can use 'Fullbring'. So, does that mean Ichigo and Chad also have this power?

-If we assume that Chad and/or Ichigo can use Fullbring, does that mean that there's a possibility that their relatives (most importantly, Chad's Abuelo and Masaki) could use this power? And is investigating this one way how Masaki and Isshin could have met?

I honestly have another ten of these up my sleeve, but I'll be controlled (...this time). Also, I'm organizing some jumbled thoughts of mine into a possible theory on how Xcution started out-and how it could relate to Ichigo's backstory. I'll have that up in a few days.

So, what do you all say? A chance for minds to get together and discuss what MIGHT be in the Bleach universe a few (or many) chapters down the road? A continuously evolving debate on the why's and how's? A glimpse into my crazy mind and the place I could take this? What do you say? Yay? Nay?

And debbiechan , if you aren't comfortable with this or anything, let me know, and I'll pull the plug. Your community, your rules.
Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
_debbiechan_: Chizuru_debbiechan_ on December 27th, 2010 02:14 pm (UTC)

Haha, I'm all for theorizing, but it doesn't have to take place within formal rules or a schedule or anything like that. If anyone would like to post a "crazy theory" or a thoughtful post analyzing where he/she thinks Bleach is going and/or including a topic such as one of those you mentioned (e.g. "If we assume that Chad and/or Ichigo can use Fullbring, does that mean that there's a possibility that their relatives (most importantly, Chad's Abuelo and Masaki) could use this power? And is investigating this one way how Masaki and Isshin could have met?") THEN BY ALL MEANS POST TO THE COMMUNITY.

The success of the endeavor will be measured by how many responses you get and if these sorts of posts are successful, they will encourage more. If not, well, then they'll die out and people will be left to talking about the chapter as it comes out. I myself would like to see more speculative posts like the sort you see on forums, so please, by all means, post.

Please do try to keep the focus of each post as specific as possible and not to have it wander around too much, though, if you want people to respond to it in kind--otherwise it becomes an essay. (Although essays are welcome too--but if you're going to post an essay here, I'd like it if you ran it by me first through PM--wanky times call for such precautions).
nivek01: IchiRukinivek01 on December 27th, 2010 02:26 pm (UTC)
Ah, thanks! I just felt that the difference between this and the chapter discussions was that this would be more focused, organized, so on so forth (hence schedules and guidelines).

Rambling will be kept under control...for the most part, if I can help it. I'm really hoping this idea catches on so that I can have something to vent and such, but I'm planning on just sticking to where Kubo-sensei might be taking Bleach. What that exactly means, I don't know yet. We'll find out in about a week. Also, forgive me if the post and this reply seem a little around the board-I've had about 3 hours of sleep in the last twenty four, and all this is after a marathon of writing. Future posts and such will be more organized (and, with any luck, more eloquent).

I've thought about essays, but the main things that seemed to need analyzing (AKA the main bleach pairing) I think have been covered pretty well, and being redundant would be a waste of time. Also, I'm horrible with screencaps.
(Anonymous) on December 27th, 2010 04:28 pm (UTC)
too lazy to lock in here
Yay! I would join such a community!
I think it would have more space in its own thread and debbiechan doesn't seem to keen on a second seperate chapter discussion post in (no offense).
nivek01nivek01 on December 27th, 2010 08:57 pm (UTC)
Re: too lazy to lock in here
Agreed. A community is a wonderful idea!

...now I just need to check how to make one.
The Main Gauche of Enlightenment: Kneesocks is grinnng (trans sequence)velvetsword on December 27th, 2010 08:59 pm (UTC)
I love theorizing.

Count me in, as long as everyone takes everything with a grain of humor and/or salt.

It would probably help to make it members only also, to forstall the inevitable trolling for wank.
nivek01: IchiRukinivek01 on December 27th, 2010 09:06 pm (UTC)
Getting everything set up now.

Humor is always appreciated-sarcasm is my primary language, anyway.

Trolling...the thought sends shivers up my spine. Anyway, that's another good idea. Thanks!
njxaxsonnjxaxson on December 27th, 2010 09:20 pm (UTC)
Random Theories
Some random theories I've been hurling around for a while now that could be used to kick off the discussion. Most of these are particularly controversial, and I don't claim credit for all of these ideas, either.

1. Rukia is promoted.
I think KT is obviously holding Rukia back for a while, because when he does, there will be a grand reveal and honorous display of a brand new 13th division lieutenant's badge.

2. Hisagi will learn bankai.
It's intimated at the end of the previous arc when he goes off to train with Renji.

3. The Spirit King is an eldritch horror, and the Royal Guard is actually designed to contain the King rather than protect it.
This is based off of the conversation between Aizen and Urahara right before Aizen is defeated, where Aizen calls the SK an "it" and Urahara clarifies "oh, you mean the king?" The continuity of this theory is that Aizen has a beef with the Spirit King of some kind. It would explain a lot: why Aizen needs so much power, for instance; why he wants to build up Ichigo as a potential ally against an eldritch horror. Another related theory is that because Urahara is defending the Spirit King, he is actually a villain; this idea is somewhat supported by the latest arc in which Ginjou cautions Ichigo not to trust Urahara.

4. Aizen and Ichigo are related.
This is because of Ichigo's ZanGETSU, Isshin's EnGETSU, and Aizen's Kyouka SuiGETSU. There is some additional supporting evidence in that Ichigo & Isshin are the only relatives for which we know both zanpakutou's names. For example: Isane-yes,Kiyone-no; Byakuya-yes,Ginrei-no; Mayuri-yes,Nemu-no. This could theoretically be evidence that Kubo is deliberately trying to not contradict this potential revelation of a familial relationship between Aizen and Ichigo. Theories that extend from this are that Aizen is related to Masaki.

5. Ise Nanao is a villain.
In canonical Bleach manga, we have only one scene where Ise Nanao is revealed in any sort of detail. In that scene, she ruthlessly considers the execution of Chad while he's knocked out on the ground, and Kyouraku tells her not to. Ise Nanao is also *never* accounted for during the entire Winter War - even Kiyone & Sentaro are seen in the end of the HM arc. Furthermore, in one of the official Kubo-released omake, Nanao callously suggests enslaving/killing humans. Ignoring non-canonical content like the movies and anime filler, she is painted as a much darker character; cold, callous, uncaring, eager to kill. Based on this perception, it is theorizable that Nanao is an undiscovered betrayer and is actually working for Aizen, although I agree it is unlikely.

6. The Shiba family represents the four elements.
Kaien's Nejibana was water-based, Ganju's sandstone magic is clearly earth-based, Kuukaku the firecracker lady could obviously be fire. The question becomes, who is the fourth element? The continuation of this theory is that Isshin is the fourth Shiba with a wind-based zanpakutou (the name Engetsu, or "crescent moon", doesn't really exclude the possibility, however slim). This would somewhat explain the physical likeness of Isshin and Ganju, as well as the incredible facial similarity between Kuukaku and Karin. It would also explain Kaien and Ichigo's likeness, too. The idea of Shiba Isshin fleeing Soul Society would certainly be enough to cause the Shiba House's fall from upper nobility. Explaining how Isshin is related to the Shibas would be difficult, though.

7. Ichigo is actually the reincarnation of Kaien Shiba.
There are so many potential clues to this. Appearance, offhand conversation by Ukitake/Byakuya, potentially synchronized timing of Kaien's untimely death and Ichigo's birth, and comments at the end of the 3rd Bleach Movie from Ichigo to Rukia about how they may have met before, the symbolism of Rukia stabbing both through the chest. The above theory jives well with this one, too.

Anyway, that's the food for thought I have now. Not sure if this is what you were looking for.

-Nathan J
oh gallant piglet,: LIL-CTHULUaizome on December 27th, 2010 10:49 pm (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
"The Spirit King is an eldritch horror, and the Royal Guard is actually designed to contain the King rather than protect it."

I like this very much. I also like your sixth theory there. It makes a lot of sense.

Have to disagree about Nanao, though. If she's a villain, she's a really weak one. Don't forget the scene when she showed up before Yamamoto was about to open a can of whoop-ass on Shunsui and Ukitake. His reiatsu forced her to her knees where she started crying and foaming at the mouth. I think she was excluded from the war simply because she wasn't battle-ready. We've never even seen her zanpakutou.
njxaxsonnjxaxson on December 28th, 2010 07:01 am (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
A couple of flaws with your arguments:

1. Ise Nanao is a *vice captain* in the *military*. Kubo has noted that she is a kido master. Just because we haven't seen her fight (and against the Soutaicho doesn't count - I bet Matsumoto or Kira or Hinamori would crumble, too) doesn't mean she can't. We've seen Isane get her butt handed to her from Ichigo on Soukyoku Hill, but she was sent to Hueco Mundo and Unohana had to stop her from picking a fight with the Exequias. So saying Nanao wasn't at the Winter War because she isn't "battle-ready" doesn't really have much ground to stand on. It's just as likely that Kyouraku didn't want his kawaii Nanao-chan to get hurt and he kept her home, regardless of how capable she is. And besides, Nanao could easily create excuses as to why she should stay back.

2. Even if she was weak, weak villains are the most interesting ones. Plenty of stories have mastermind villains that are more human. Look how laughable Aizen became at one point - he was so powerful it just seemed absurd and pointless and over the top. Nanao as a paper-pushing sleeper agent would be in perfect position to feed Aizen the information that he needs, and by not standing out from a military standpoint, it only helps her cover. So being weak does not exclude the possibility of being evil.

3. Saying that we haven't seen her zanpakutou isn't really an argument. In fact, it only supports the theory - Kubo could give a big reveal later. Maybe it's something as equally devious as Aizen's, or who knows? All we know about it is that she has a tanto in her sleeve and she tried to bring it out against the Soutaicho. That implies that Nanao thinks it's effective enough to deal with powerful opponents, and the fact that Kubo never let us see her get to that is an interesting point rather than a dismissed one.

Not to say that you're wrong, though. :) Because I agree the "Nanao is a bad guy" theory is pretty hard to swallow, and even I don't fully believe in it. However, I *do* believe that it is, at the very least, a possibility that Kubo could twist at us, considering that he can be genius with these sorts of things. :)

nivek01: IchiRukinivek01 on December 27th, 2010 11:01 pm (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
Hm...I've heard a lot of these theories, but not described to this detail.

1. As far as Rukia being promoted, Byakuya only ever did it to try and protect her from the more dangerous missions. The fact that she is one of the few to take down an Espada single handedly (A feat reserved for Ichigo against Grimmjow and Byakuya against Zommari) and the only non seated officer to take down any arrancar (three, actually). Both of these are testaments to her strength; and I highly doubt Ukitake and Yamamoto would just sit by and let such talent be wasted.

2. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he'll have Bankai as well. He seems a bit like a more level headed Tosen; Hisagi will be perfect for the new head of the Ninth division-if one of the Vaizards didn't take that post back.

3. I'd gotten the feeling that the spirit king was some sort of monster as well, but I didn't ever think about the Royal Guard being there to contain it. As Urahara said, 'it' controls the cycle of rebirth; If the spirit king is destroyed, then everything is ripped apart, which is probably why the Royal guard is a division entirely of high level captains. I think that Aizen, once he heard about the Royal Guard from Kyoraku in the turn back the pendulam mini-arc, did some research, found out about the spirit king, and decided to destroy it. I've actually been getting a vibe lately that SS are the 'villians' especially with what Ginjou has said. I'm really interested to see what Urahara is up to now, with staying in contact with the Kurosaki's.

4. A family relation between the Kurosaki's and Aizen...haven't considered that one, actually. I'd always thought that Kurosaki males are always so alike that their zanpacktuo would have to manifest as almost duplicates. Being related to Aizen, though...I think I could see something there with Masaki. But at the same time, Aizen showed surprise when Isshin popped onto the battlefield at the end of the Fake Karakura town battle, muttering to himself "And they're related...?" Like he didn't know the connection between Isshin and Ichigo. But I can't make much more out of the theory then what you've already said.

5. I actually laughed at this one until I read the proofs. I think Nanao is more of the 'perfect' shinigami, and as such has an attitude of lording over the human race. She seems to be very uptight and by the book, and I think her darker personality comes from the person she looked up to (Lisa) being turned into a monster and banished. I have no idea how that reunion would go.

6. This one caught me off guard, but it makes sense. I'd actually never given the theory that Isshin-and by extension, Ichigo-was a Shiba, mostly because of the lack of reaction from Kukaku and Ganju at Ichigo's appearance. The fall of the Shiba's having to do with Isshin fleeing SS...I actually think he was either banished, or used the FGT and lost his powers. It probably had something to do with Masaki, which could explain why Kaien would suddenly accept the position as 13th squad vice-captain. As far as relation...either older brother or uncle, I think.

7. This one I don't think would pan out, just because of the Ninth espada. He says that, when Kaien's soul faded from soul society, the hollow part of him went to HM, where Aaroneio consumed him. I think that's why he looked so much like Kaien, and could use his zanpacktuo, because he had Kaien's soul in him. It would be kind of hard to reincarnate if you're stuck in a menos. But maybe I'm wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time :)

Actually, this sort of thing would be awesome for discussing in the community. Thanks, and I hope you join!
Kim!: Mmm... Jump...spartydragon on December 28th, 2010 01:11 am (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
1. Rukia is promoted.

I'd be surprised if this DIDN'T happen. X)

3. The Spirit King is an eldritch horror, and the Royal Guard is actually designed to contain the King rather than protect it.


4. Aizen and Ichigo are related.

I dunno. That seems a bit of a stretch. What does getsu mean? Could be a common sword type adjective?

I've been on the "Isshin is a Shiba" bandwagon, since, forever. XD

7. Ichigo is actually the reincarnation of Kaien Shiba.

Ugh, not that again. Shinigami don't reincarnate. You can only die twice, apparently. Remember? Kaien even said it in a flashback; when a shinigami dies their bodies become the grass spirit particles, and the antelope eat the grass which goes back into the spirit world as... yanno stuff, matter reishi, rishi? However that's spelled. Nothing of what makes them, them remains beyond the heart, which is what their friends hold on to. It's more poetic than literal in that it's fond memories and stuff. You never really die if you're remembered.

Besides, Kuukaku and Ganju woulda been like ASDFGHJKL ANIKI!? When they first saw Ichigo, but they didn't recognize him. At all. Not to mention Rukia never seemed to put the two together. Her Ichigo-Kaien connection comes from her loosing a friend (Kaien), and potentially loosing another (Ichigo going after Grand Fisher), due to MANLY PRIDE, not from any sort of resemblance.

Kim!: Nose Ponies!!!!spartydragon on December 28th, 2010 01:21 am (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
Ah, Getsu (月) means moon.

Ichigo: Cutting Moon
Isshin: Scathing Moon
Aizen: Mirror Flower Water Moon

Hack, scathe, mirror flower water. >.> Doesn't sound like a set to me. Unless Aizen is the black sheep of the herd. The watery flower mirror black sheep. XD
njxaxsonnjxaxson on December 28th, 2010 07:08 am (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
"You can only die twice, apparently. Remember?"

There is proof against this in canonical Bleach, as Rukia's description to Ichigo of the balance between worlds contradicts this. When describing why the quincy were assaulted because the obliterate souls rather than recycling them, it is *heavily* intimated that the flow of souls goes both ways, from Earth -> Soul Society and then back from Soul Society -> Earth.

It's not hard to interpret Kaien's remarks differently, either. Just as a human dies and their body returns to the world (i.e. decays) as the soul goes to SS, so too, a plus/shinigami's soul travels to Earth while the remnants of their corpse (made out of spirit particles, of course) is absorbed back into its environment. So I don't see this as a contradiction.

>> When they first saw Ichigo, but they didn't recognize him. At all.

Yeah, because black-haired people and redheads are SOOOO easily identified as looking alike. :) While Kuukaku, Ganju, nor Rukia may not have noticed, Ukitake and Byakuya *did*. So I don't count this out. That being said, I agree there are a number of things that would have to be explained.
Kim!: Mushroom Mushroomspartydragon on December 28th, 2010 07:45 am (UTC)
Re: Random Theories
Uh, normal humans die, go to soul society, hang around for a while, then are reincarnated. Shinigami are no longer in the reincarnation cycle. Once you gather enough spirit power to become a shinigami, that's pretty much it. Once you die like that, you're dead.

Also remember, there are far, far fewer shinigami than there are normal humans. So their presence doesn't upset the balance. The trouble with the Quincy was that they either were, or had the potential to destroy too many souls and upset the balance.

But that's the thing, a shinigami IS a soul. If their spiritual bodies die, there isn't anything left to reincarnate. If it wasn't it'd be a massive ass nesting doll, which would kind of make reincarnation pointless, since people would just keep moving through dimensions, never returning to the living world.

Facial structure man, facial structure. Shave Ichigo and Kaien bald and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart. Aside from their default expressions. Ichigo would be all like >:[ and Kaien'd be all like 8D.
(Deleted comment)
nivek01: IchiRukinivek01 on December 27th, 2010 10:38 pm (UTC)
Great! I'll post a link up to the community in a few days, when I get it hashed out.
tubasiu on December 28th, 2010 01:55 am (UTC)
This idea is awesome. I typically get through the first 10-15 comments on a chapter release post before I start wondering when people will discuss Bleach and not just talk about how hot some character is...haha

_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on December 28th, 2010 04:51 am (UTC)
Good luck with your community. All I can say is that one for discussion of the bleach manga has existed for a very long time: soulsociety

Others for discussion of the chapters as they came out have fizzled out. I'm not sure exactly what it is that keeps a community up and running but I can say that modding it with vigilance helps.
nivek01nivek01 on December 28th, 2010 07:54 am (UTC)
Thanks for the support! And are you sure that's a discussion community? Because I checked it out, and it seemed like some sort of roleplaying thing...plus it's been like, two years since anyone posted. Maybe the links bad or something?

I'm planning on triple checking it, to make sure everyone is happy and content and enjoying themselves. Any tips on what I should look out for when modding?
_debbiechan_: party by sxylilwitch_debbiechan_ on December 28th, 2010 12:18 pm (UTC)

Ah, bad link yes. This is the one: http://community.livejournal.com/soul_society/profile

It's been a while since discussion got started up there but it used to be quite a lively place.
And like I said before, anyone is free to start a discussion topic here. The community above was designed specifically for discussion. It's just that people tend to only talk when the chapters come out, but a good topic like "Chad's role in this arc" may stir up discussion.

Insofar as modding goes, my only advice is to show enthusiasm yourself, model the sort of behavior you can expect, and when disagreements break out it's better to let people handle them on their own before stepping in. Be sure of what you're going to NOT tolerate going in, though--and if ever things get rowdy just go "take it to PM" XD

Go for it!
it's green and tastes like licorice.rionarch on December 27th, 2010 10:58 pm (UTC)
Count me in. It would be great to have a theory comm, if only to spread ideas around. For the past two years I've been trying to find whoever posted the most awesome theory about Aizen that I'd ever heard (That he might have lost a battle with his inner hollow).

Theories often get lost in squee comments and it'd be great to have. Especially those of us that can't navigate a forum well
nivek01nivek01 on December 27th, 2010 11:02 pm (UTC)
AGREED! This is pretty much exactly why I came up with the idea to do a community like this. Thanks for the support!
heladeazulheladeazul on December 28th, 2010 04:38 am (UTC)
I love the idea, I've always wanted to theories share and discover the unknowns to Bleach.
Please count me, and I wish him well for this project. ^_^!

nivek01nivek01 on December 28th, 2010 07:55 am (UTC)
Good to have your support! Hopefully we'll pick up on the little hints Kubo-sensei likes to drop oh...four years and an arc in advance? I've always loved that about him...
(Deleted comment)
nivek01nivek01 on December 28th, 2010 07:55 am (UTC)
Awesome. Thanks.