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26 November 2010 @ 02:54 pm
Oh Sensei, Sensei, you are so not a troll to me!  

Oh I'm so full. My family doesn't usually celebrate Thanksgiving--even though we're Amercans, we're transplanted ones, but oh yum was yesterday loaded with Bleach goodies! If I didn't know better (lol, how often have I been saying that lately) and wasn't absolutely certain that the extra movie-tie-in Hellverse chapter didn't make its official debut in Japan this upcoming Monday, the title on the color page "You are invited to the feast of the unforgiven in the underworld" would make me think that Sensei timed the release of it to absolutely correspond with the American Thanksgiving holiday!

And to think the feast is far from over! The movie has yet to be released!

Of all the upcoming Bleach goodies, I most anticipate the Kubo Tite interview that's going to be in the movie 4 pamphlet.

It's always struck me as funny that Kubo Tite has such a rep for being a troll artist. For me, a troll is someone who deliberately baits an audience, provokes wank and controversy, and the main connotation of "troll" is someone who isn't at all serious, is more of a practical joker than an artist (or more of a wiseass than an honest debator on forums), and really needs to get a life. While Kubo has always come off as a jokey person to me (I mean, gosh, his sense of humor isn't for everyone--between Zombie Powder and Szayel Aporro Grantz generations of 13 yr olds would never run out of penis jokes) he's struck me as particularly hard-working and sincere in interviews. Not all authorial intent is equal--that's why it's such an unreliable gauge of what to expect in a story. But Kubo-sensei is a literate, vibrant person who talks about "illustrating the air" when he explains his lack of backgrounds or not using assistants to fill them in for him. He speaks of his emphasis on character-driven plots and how he'd like to put more stories in (like the Ashido plot) but isn't allowed for "lack of time" and he does claim to throw in "little things" that an audience wouldn't notice. (He doesn't play to entertain boys my son's age--neither do the authors of most long-running shounen either. I always laugh when people say "oh you're looking too deep into a shounen", because in Japan, people grow up with these stories. The people who started reading Bleach at age 13 are in their 20s now and still loyal readers. Parents and grandparents read shounen---there's always something in them for everyone despite the general tropes in them being structured around coming-of-age narratives that teach Japanese boys how to be good and moral citizens who believe in themselves and play well with others and trust in their nakama!)

Remember this quote of Sensei's? It's my favorite (translated by melodymix ):  (empasis mine)

"There are bits in the manga where I draw scene that wouldn’t get the reader’s attention too much. I always put all my effort into my manga but how each audience read my manga are different. So it’s really important to make sure they would end up all having a similar idea of my story, but then again, it’s really up to them how they read the manga, but then there are scenes where I want the audience to be touched, so it’s really hard."

I love this quote because Sensei acknowledges that everyone is free to read his manga as he or she wishes--it's like he's saying, okay, you can see an eagle where I intended a hedgehog or vice versa but I wish you didn't. He talked about this desire of his once before when he observed some kids discussing Old man Yama's ban kai (they had mistaken the firebird at the execution site for being said ban kai) and Kubo told himself to "try harder"). Call me a fangirl but I see Kubo-sensei trying very very hard when he writes and draws. It makes me shake my head when I read people say he's fanservicing or making things up as he goes along. Sure, all artists are guilty of people-pleasing here and there, and there's this thing called improv but to say that Ulquiorra's last minute redemption was pure fanservice to UlquiHime fans and a total asspull is just .... who can I put this kindly? Wrong? XD

Anyway, my Ishida Uryuu FanClub over at BA was looking too closely at panels as usual the other day and la_kalaka noticed something interesting. Among all my happiness over Ishida being back in the story, I was sort of bummed that he was being a liar liar pants on fire in chapter 247 (yes people, I can note character flaws in even my fave character--just like I can with Orihime--please call me an "untrue" Ishida fan NAO). Eny noted that Ishida's hesitation over telling Orihime the truth was marked by a close up of Ishida's SHOE. Sensei had also made a similar close up of Ishida's shoe in chapter 117 when Orihime asked Ishida to take her up to the dome and Ishida hesitated

I called it Ishida's Hesitant Shoe. nehalenia calls it his Lying Shoe. I'm sure it was a definite parallel and artistic choice on the part of Kubo. People often look at their feet when they're unsure about whether to move forward. Isn't that a cool "little thing" that an author puts in? Make me feel all "yays" when someone catches it.

Okay, I've already forgotten what else I was going to type and there's a loaf of butternut squash bread with my name on it waiting for me in the fridge. Laters!
Current Mood: fullfull
pony_rocks: pic#84544780pony_rocks on November 26th, 2010 09:02 pm (UTC)
I am kind of in love with the Hesitant/Lying Shoe.
There's no Love Without you: IchiWTFne_wayz on November 26th, 2010 09:14 pm (UTC)
This kinda reminds me of those panels when Ichigo makes a statement and in the next panel we only see the back of his head. It's Kubo's way of saying "hey, this character is saying one thing, but meaning another", like when Ichigo told Keigo that he was alright, and next thing we got was a shot of the sky? Those little panels that most of us are guilty of looking over tend to be the most telling panels when it comes to character development.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on November 26th, 2010 09:21 pm (UTC)

No kidding. All those close-ups of eyes and noses and mouths. People do complain about how much Kubo-sensei wastes time on these but they add an emotional context to what he's telling. People don't always say what they mean or speak directly. Which is why the "if I don't hear it in word" contingencies of fandom frustrate me. Manga is a medium in words AND PICTURES. It's rather daft to expect characters to be revealing themselves only through love confessions in words or telling the absolute truth all the time. There are so many visual puns, textual lies and bold ironies in Bleach!
♀*La Muerte Chiquita*♀: kurosakisla_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:42 am (UTC)
please call me an "untrue" Ishida fan NAO

Untrue Ishida fan, you :( (now I'm gonna troll you 4EVAR!)



That's what frustrated me too, people got stuck to much into the words instead of seeing the actions, the pictures in it, they tend to forget that a LOT. As you said, comic is not only words, but also PICTURES, and those are very telling. They make the impact greater or show you contradictions.

There are so many visual puns, textual lies and bold ironies in Bleach!

And I enjoy them when I find them.

Right now, we've had a lot of close ups to Kuugo's mouth which of course are trying to say something to us, about his words and purpose as a character in Bleach. I'm loving that to pieces *_*
bloodandpepper: chibi-Uryuubloodandpepper on November 26th, 2010 09:44 pm (UTC)
Have I ever mentioned that I adore your honest-to-the-bone interpretation of stuff other fangirls wouldn't spare a blink of the eye? I do. Enjoy your squash bread, I'm already into the christmas cookie production. XD~~~
_debbiechan_: bleach ishoe by emlan_debbiechan_ on November 26th, 2010 10:51 pm (UTC)

aw, thank you! <3

Look, I already had an Ishida SHOE ICON!
(no subject) - bloodandpepper on November 26th, 2010 10:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
dekinai_yo on November 26th, 2010 10:50 pm (UTC)
this is relevant to my interests...
I have only been a part of this whole fandom for maybe a little over a year (a friend who I trust to have pretty good taste insisted that I check this manga out that he loved, so I did, and wow he was right) so I haven't really been drawn into a lot of message board conversations about it yet, but it seems awfully sad that a lot of the fans are apparently completely missing the poetry of this work - those little details make the story into so, so much more than it would be if it was abrupt and expository. They also make it clear to me that Kubo-sensei really cares about what he's doing, to flesh out the world he created with that kind of sensitivity. I laugh at the Kubo-troll' jokes sometimes, but I really don't see any truth in the accusation. When that sort of thing pops up, I just see impatient 'fans' looking for what they want, when and how they want it.
_debbiechan_: EXASPERATED ISHIDA_debbiechan_ on November 27th, 2010 01:32 pm (UTC)
Re: this is relevant to my interests...

I just see impatient 'fans' looking for what they want, when and how they want it.

Anime watchers tend to get really impatient with manga. Audiences in general tend be really REALLY spoiled vis a vis the availability of entertainment nowadays and put no effort into a medium like a long-running serial manga--they expect everything to be spoonfed them and don't want to look for clues or interpret poetry. They complain about pacing and want 20 pages of pictures to behave like a 20 minute television episode.

And if an author doesn't write what they predicted or decided would be "cool" they shout "troll!" or "fanservice!"
Re: this is relevant to my interests... - dekinai_yo on November 27th, 2010 07:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
sugary_nitemare on November 26th, 2010 11:04 pm (UTC)
I could only read this briefly since I'm currently in the UGG line, and I really think the way you speak your mind is great Debbie! I've always enjoyed reading your essays :D! I shall actually comment when I get home. (the line is damn long -___-)
♀*La Muerte Chiquita*♀: Cool Ishidala_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 12:13 am (UTC)
Analysis of manga panel. UNF! <3

Besides the fangirling over my favorite characters, the essays, this is one of my favorite stuffs to read. I love when people point out about details that most of the audience ignores/ don't pay enough attention. Little details, hidden poetry and hints here and there, are like sauce in the food, yummy! :3-

Oh the Hesitant Shoe, glad to put my grain of salt in this ^^ I catched that detail af first sight, cause everything was repeated in front of me. Ishida and Orihime, a troublesome question and then, the panel with the shoe. I think you was the one who said that such thing meant "hesitation" so when I put the two moments together it was pretty clear that Ishida was troubled wether to say the the true or hide it. Between his look towards her and his answer it was that "space" in which I could put his hesitation, his memories of the dome and then his wishes to protect her from the pain of that world they already have entered.

For that reason I believe Ishida didn't lie as a primary reaction, but due to the circunstances in the past, he took that decision.

Of course I'm hoping for Orihime to prove him wrong.

nehalenia: ichiishi first thanksgivingnehalenia on November 27th, 2010 12:36 am (UTC)
For that reason I believe Ishida didn't lie as a primary reaction...

LOL, I just said the same thing below. Like minds. :)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
The Main Gauche of Enlightenment: Kneesocks is grinnng (trans sequence)velvetsword on November 27th, 2010 12:14 am (UTC)
My favorites are the eye panels.

It's a little less subtle than just straight up drawing a flashing neon sign that says 'These two people are having an interpersonal dialogue!' but hey. Nuance.

Also it has prompted me more than a few times to launch into an a capella rendition of 'Your Lying Eyes' by the Eagles, for which I have nearly been killed several times.
♀*La Muerte Chiquita*♀: Chadapprovesla_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:25 am (UTC)
The eyes panels are gorgeus (Ishida eyes! <3) you can feel the emotions. And nw that you mention it, what a difference between the sadness in the Lust chapter and the seriousness in chapter 427.
nehalenia: ichiishi first thanksgivingnehalenia on November 27th, 2010 12:34 am (UTC)
To be fair, I only think it's a 'lying' shoe in the second instance. :) "Hesitant shoe" really is a better assessment. It also makes Ishida's lie more telling since it implies that he almost told Inoue the truth. He stopped himself before he did, however, and decided to put off her suspicions. Why he did that is still up for grabs. He may have felt he was protecting her, but personally, I think he just wants to find out more about the situation. Given the way Orihime reacted to Ichigo being 'kidnapped', Ishida may have been afraid that if he confirmed Orihime's suspicion, she might run off and tell others or ask Ichigo about it or something. And we all know how much Ishida likes to assess things before making a move. ;)
_debbiechan_: IshiHime grab_debbiechan_ on November 27th, 2010 04:50 am (UTC)

I think it's telling that given how her "Ichigo interest/obsession" made her request Ishida take her up up to the dome (something Ishida regretted doing), Ishida didn't want her involved in anything with Ichigo again---Orihime ran to save Ichigo in this case and he ran after her and physically restrained her (how unseemly, how something like you would do for a child running into a busy street, very odd for Ishida) and actually yelled at her ( see icon) and seemed EXTRA worried about her. He seemed to not trust at all her ability to handle herself in any sort of battle situation given what he witnessed on the dome...

which is why I think that in this arc he has to witness Orihime proving his fears wrong.
(no subject) - la_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on November 27th, 2010 06:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 03:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
sombra29 on November 27th, 2010 12:43 am (UTC)
WARNING lame ranting ahead
This entry is love :D

My personal favorites are the total-blanked panels with just dialogue("To protect Mom,who always protected me" or "Ever Since then,Rukia hasn't come to Karakura Town even once"or just to name two from the top of my head).The power of emphasis with this technique that Sensei mastered is just...overwhelming.

I HAVE heard this typical "Omg it takes so many space and makes it so sloooooooow" complain from someone recently but,allow me to expand,this person is not a Bleach fan.He is the kind of "cult" viewer who says he must despise shonens because they are not "intelligent enough" and are too "mainstream".And this is stuff he told me himself.Yeah.Im sure you must have encountered this kind of persons too once,with the snob artist mindset.

I don't think a Bleach fan,a passionate customer,wouldn't enjoy the style of narrative Kubo has(and please do note that,like debbie perfectly addressed,narrative in comics DOES NOT mean -plot-,it is a combination of visual clichés,movement,dialogue and sound,because manga is,above all, a visual medium.)Slow,suspenseful as it is,specially considering is always been like this since day one...
feé: orihime ~think!ryfee on November 27th, 2010 12:47 am (UTC)

I say screw whiners. XD;

Edited at 2010-11-27 12:47 am (UTC)
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: IshiHime- き-君が好きですよ。nendo_chan on November 27th, 2010 12:48 am (UTC)
"The Hesitant Shoe" would be an amazing band name. xD

That aside, I love these little quirks and tidbits Kubo throws in that make his caracters so human.
Super Nintendo Chalmers: ♥ Sexiness personified - Ulquihime ♥strawberries_85 on November 27th, 2010 01:19 am (UTC)
Call me a fangirl but I see Kubo-sensei trying very very hard when he writes and draws. It makes me shake my head when I read people say he's fanservicing or making things up as he goes along. Sure, all artists are guilty of people-pleasing here and there, and there's this thing called improv but to say that Ulquiorra's last minute redemption was pure fanservice to UlquiHime fans and a total asspull is just .... who can I put this kindly? Wrong? XD

THIS x100.

People just don't look hard enough at Kubo's literary techniques. Yes, they are literary techniques despite the manga having pictures. How often has he used the method of close ups of the face and shading when wanting to convey that what a character is saying may not be what they are really feeling, that their feelings run deeper than the words? (Aka they're lying to themselves). A manga is a written and illustrated text, you must take both methods of storytelling into account when interpreting a character and their actions.
♀*La Muerte Chiquita*♀: kurosakisla_kalaka on November 27th, 2010 05:35 am (UTC)
picture and literature, for that reason I love comics the most *_* it's a powerful mix for me. And it requires a great effort from the author and double reading from the audience to catch those little details.
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on November 27th, 2010 01:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
magnoliastorm on November 27th, 2010 01:31 am (UTC)
if someone happen to be bored, maybe they could go through some important moments of bleach and point out these "little important" moments that we might have missed like the hesitant shoes.... and i know some people have have done this for shipping essays but this shoe thing with ishida is really enlightening for me.

honestly i read through really quickly and then look online for people's interpretations...because honestly i'm new to actually READING bleach as opposing to just watching it (which is how i was introduce to it in the first place) and since i spend 90% of my time reading scientific journals for my phd program, i don't catch these little details like you guys do. i feel like i'm missing out....
Slipstremeslipstreme on November 27th, 2010 01:45 am (UTC)
Still love how up on the news you are, and agree with you wholeheartedly. I never thought of Kubo as a troll, even if there are points in the manga I don't particularly jive with or felt could have been done better or wished he had gone on this tangent instead of that. It's his story.

"not using assistants to fill them in for him." While I understand this in a time management point, why in any gods name would an artist want someone else to do their backgrounds for them?!

behold artistic rambling:

I guess I could understand if two artists were really good friends and decided to collab together (seen a couple furry comics that were great done this way), but I know in my case I would want full creative license to do what I want with my comic. Having someone else do the work for you negates that even if it is to save time. I mean what if the person you hired to do it did a poor job, or you weren't able to see the finished product before it hit the shelves *shivers*?

Any time I have thought about or said I wish I had someone to do 'x' for me in art has been joking, solely because that 'x' is a pain in the ass, not cause I would actually want it.

I completely and utterly support his decision here.

As far as the not taking the time to, with how many lovely close ups on the character's expressive faces he has, I would think that, coupled with the action shots, detailed backgrounds would become unnecessary and distracting. Something the lines or "illustrating the air" does is provide movement to a static image. Done well it makes the image that more dynamic and real, rather than sterile or feeling like a still life.

Anyway love what you pointed out about Ishida's shoe. I'll be looking for that now lol.