?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
27 September 2010 @ 08:23 am
We have rebuttal to Karenai's essay!  
Warning for shipping.

We've waited over a year for someone, anyone, to answer karenai 's Lust Arc essay (linked on side of this community). The author has asked over and over for a response, and now it seems we do have a long and comprehensive rebuttal:

The rebuttal essay is Orihime Loves Ichigo. The title itself is deceptive since that statement itself is arguably canon fact (although Karenai's essay does, among other things, conclude that Orihime does not really love Ichigo--I have always disagreed with her about that one particular). This essay, posted on a site that doesn't allow for comments, addresses many points besides Orihime's love for Ichigo and does seem to beg for comments insofar as it seems to be riddled with errors. I'm asking everyone here who responds to it to read the whole thing before responding, to be on his or her best behavior before responding, to acknowledge the effort that went into compiling all the documentation in the essay and to refrain from mocking statements, but please, address the more outrageous claims. In particular I'm interested in the issue of Viz's translation being the one correct source, the characterizations of romance in shounen, Rukia's characterization ("Rukia is as naive as Hinamori when it comes to a pretty face"), the idea that Ichigo and Rukia being a couple would cause havoc among the nakama, and the bizarre conclusion that it wasn't Ulquiorra's breaking off IchiThing's horn but Orihime's calling out to IchiThing that caused Ichigo's transformation back to normal and caused him to not fire the cero at Ishida.

Anon comments disabled. Please, respond succinctly and politely.

eta: and in anticipation of the question why link this essay and not other IchiOri essays, the answer is that this is the only one I've seen that directly responded to an essay on this site.
 
 
 
balladbirdballadbird on September 27th, 2010 01:46 pm (UTC)
my take, part 1.
///Disclaimer: This is just an essay written by Beruhime219. I am an Ichihime fan so it will be hard not to be biased, but I will do my best to give a proper conclusion unlike the people behind livejournals super-fail of an essay///

To begin at the beginning, you say that your aim is to be as neutral as possible, a venture I respect. To go on to say, however, that your intention is to provide an essay that surpasses the "super fail" essay on Live Journal, shreds impartiality.

In writing an essay, one must keep their fangs sheathed. if Karenai's essay irritates you, and your aim is to prove it to be "super fail" then all you need do is remain calm and state your case matter-of-factly. Doing so maintains neutrality, and opens your essay to the largest possible audience.



///No Romance in Shounen?///

I have no particular disagreements with this section of your essay. Romance is an inevitable part of character development after all, and its complete absence is almost unnatural in any plot that involves the interactions of characters of opposite genders.

There is indeed a demographic that believes there is no romance in shonen, but this is primarily made up of the power level fanboys who care about nothing except which character can throw the hardest punch. If shippers didn't believe there could be romance in shonen, they would not be shippers. As such, for the intent of your essay, which is, I assume, aimed primarily at shippers, this section is basically preaching to the choir.

hinodeh: comfortablehinodeh on September 27th, 2010 02:01 pm (UTC)
Re: my take, part 1.
Good rebuttal. Though I'd say that Beruhime seems to miss the fact that "shounen" is a boad umbrella term that encompases many kinds of stories targted at male teens.

When some fans cry that there's not romance in shounen the usually mean its subgenre fighting shounen. Boys Be, Macross, Eureka 7, Howl's Moving castle, Full Metal Panic and even Full Metal Alchemist (too much plot too little fighting, among other things) do not belong in this subgenre.

She should talk about One Piece, Shaman King, Fairy Tail (this one is really good to prove her point!), D.Gray-Man, Flame of Recca etc.
Re: my take, part 1. - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 04:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 1. - hinodeh on September 27th, 2010 04:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 1. - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 04:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 1. - adam_epp on September 28th, 2010 02:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
my take, part 2 - balladbird on September 27th, 2010 02:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 2 - pony_rocks on September 27th, 2010 02:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 2 - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 08:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 2 - deecaffeinated on September 27th, 2010 06:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 2 - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 08:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 2 - adam_epp on September 28th, 2010 02:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 3 - balladbird on September 27th, 2010 02:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 4 - balladbird on September 27th, 2010 02:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 4 - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 08:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 5 - balladbird on September 27th, 2010 02:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 6 - balladbird on September 27th, 2010 03:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 6 - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 03:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 6 - adam_epp on September 28th, 2010 02:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: my take, part 6 - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 04:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
maewiemaewie on September 27th, 2010 02:00 pm (UTC)
Read (almost) the whole thing. Skipped a bit to the lust arc, since i was a bit curious at how she decided to work it out.

My impression is mostly:
1. total ignorance of Rukia's meaning to Ichigo
2. total ignorance of other possible crushes/love between characters. (Ishida supporting Ichihime love? Ulquiorra gaining a heart because of the ichihime love?)

3. Its pretty obvious already from the beginning what the author is trying to say; that the love is there all along. Now yes, i can agree to that Orihime has a crush, but this essay drags it a bit much. However, it does makes me think. I do get new insight with panels of Ichigo and Orihime alone. But two peoples alone in a room isnt necessary love.
Super Nintendo Chalmers: Dance Sode no Shirayuki!strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 02:12 pm (UTC)
I cannot bring myself to respond to this essay without completely mocking the author, thus I'll just comment on one thing that has taken my interest.

Rukia is as naive as Hinamori when it comes to a pretty face.

What? That would imply that there is some sort of parallel between Kaien and Aizen, which would mean that Kaien willingly became a villain, set out to hurt those who loved him. That is NOT the case at all and this argument shows a complete lack of regard towards Rukia's and Kaien's characterization, not to mention Kubo's intention in portraying different themes as part of the Rukia/Kaien and Momo/Aizen relationship. In fact, I almost feel like the author is purposely mocking Rukia's character by making such an absurd, out-there claim. Or am I misunderstanding something here? :/
_debbiechan_: rukia peeking_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 02:23 pm (UTC)

It struck me as a completely unfounded characterization. There are no instances in the manga where Rukia seems to show a weakness for beautiful men or show submissive qualities at all. And the author doesn't make any comparisons between Hinamori and Rukia--not that there are many to make or that they would be relevant to the essay.

It was a bashing, unnecessary remark.

The sort of throwaway thing that sinks an essay and keeps anyone from taking it seriously.
(no subject) - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 02:38 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 02:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on September 28th, 2010 06:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 06:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on September 28th, 2010 08:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 10:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - la_kalaka on September 30th, 2010 05:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pony_rocks on September 27th, 2010 02:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 02:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pony_rocks on September 27th, 2010 02:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 03:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pony_rocks on September 27th, 2010 03:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
_debbiechan_: ulqui gif_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 02:19 pm (UTC)
I'm just waiting for someone to get to the last page of the essay, I guess, because there's where I see the most outrageous claim and there's where there's the Lust Arc connection is. I just can't for the life of me see Orihime's cry as being what changed Ichigo back to normal. It's like a long-distance "cool down hug" that so many shippers wanted to happen. It didn't happen. Ulquiorra made Ichigo change back and saved Ishida (and everyone else on the dome)--that was the point of the Lust arc.

Edited at 2010-09-27 02:20 pm (UTC)
iam_paranoid: Blacknwhiteiam_paranoid on September 27th, 2010 03:19 pm (UTC)
I will not bother pointing out all possible flaws of the essay (indeed, such an action would possibly take hours), but I'll point out certain things that have aroused my interest:

1. Many of the inferences are rather, pardon me, shallow.
Bickering does not necessaraily equate to the lack of concern, and arguments are not necessarily symptomatic of lack of care between these two characters. I quote your example: In FMA, the main canon pairing, EdWin, involves much bickering and quarrelling (and sometimes, on the part of Winry, much physical violence). Yet such matters did not mar their relationship. Similiarly, I would argue that, however much Ichigo and Rukia fight, they do in fact care for each other.

2. "IchiRuki is a Crack Pairing."
This careless assumption is rather arbitrary; the two of them, contrary to your beliefs, actually share deeper moments (such as when Rukia persuaded Ichigo to overcome his hollow self). Of course, much of the interaction between them reaps laughter from the audience, but what's wrong with that? Interactions between Ichigo and Orihime has a similiar effect; as do Ichigo's relationships with Isshin; with Renji; with Ishida; with Yoruichi; with most of the characters throughout the course of the manga. (Humour, as we all know, is usually well appreciated by the audience.) And does it make all of his relationships with other characters insubstantial and shallow? No, it doesn't.

3. "Rukia is as naive as Hinamori when it comes to a pretty face."
I see no striking similiarites between these two characters; in fact I can hardly see any links at all. I do not recall, in my years of reading Bleach, Rukia ever reacting irrationally to any character with a 'pretty face'. Her affection for Kaien is clearly due to his character, and not his physical attributes.

(Also, please try to avoid using childish, derogatory terms when addressing other essays (i.e.super-fail of an essay), as well as using eye rolling to prove the inferiority of others' arguments. They'll just make people take you even less seriously.)

(I genuinely hope that I have not mortally offended anyone. :/)
_debbiechan_: rukia peeking_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 03:50 pm (UTC)

Thanks for your response. That was perfect. To be fair, Ky also entitled the essay that provoked this response "IchiHime Fail" and I've always thought it was a baiting title, one that didn't reflect the seriousness of content. Interestingly the title of the essay at hand here doesn't match its content either.

Eye rolls aren't good answers to any points in an argument, yeah. XD Good advice to all essay-writers out there. I can take them (along with headdesks and facepalms) if they're followed by something substantial but alone--nu uh.
(no subject) - iam_paranoid on September 28th, 2010 09:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 04:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - iam_paranoid on September 28th, 2010 09:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 08:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 08:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nehalenia on September 28th, 2010 03:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - iam_paranoid on September 28th, 2010 09:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
it's green and tastes like licorice.rionarch on September 27th, 2010 04:21 pm (UTC)
Just wondering, does the author of this know that a link of her work has been posted here?
Kylara: Byakuya in the windkarenai on September 27th, 2010 04:22 pm (UTC)
No more than I did.
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 04:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rionarch on September 27th, 2010 04:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - strawberries_85 on September 27th, 2010 04:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nightshade_ave on September 27th, 2010 04:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 04:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - qwirky on September 27th, 2010 04:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 05:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Banavitiates on September 27th, 2010 05:17 pm (UTC)
This is just. Wow.

Some of things she's done to characterize Rukia in her essay seriously make me wonder if we're reading the same manga here--or if she's somehow construed the meaning of "neutrality" to mean "extremely biased and prone to character bashing". I couldn't muster the patience to finish the essay, I felt a little green around the edges while reading some of her lesser sound points. Argue all you want, but character bashing should never be a critical part (or even a part) of any legitimate, well-crafted essay.
quiet: ❙everything's blue in this worldwoodwind on September 27th, 2010 05:25 pm (UTC)
It's weird liking both pairings.
_debbiechan_: We're all MAD Here by Saint Maverick_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 05:26 pm (UTC)

How so?
(no subject) - woodwind on September 28th, 2010 04:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 05:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kylara: Surprizen!karenai on September 27th, 2010 05:50 pm (UTC)
For the record, as I see _debbiechan_ as having said above, I don't particularly care if the essay is called the Ichihime fail essay.

A note on the Lust essay: that thing has been posted in its entirety on other forums, quoted in part and discussed on other forums, and even translated in its entirety on other forums, all without permission or notice to myself. I think I gave up caring because this is the internet.

I give the author credit for:
1) trying to cite with pictures
2) actually writing something as opposed to repeatedly making statements like, "I'm planning an essay that is going to so pwn that Ichihime fail essay."

That being said, this essay and ones like it are difficult to rebut because the author is incorrect in multiple ways, even before getting to the interpretation. When this happens, a rebuttal takes many times as long to address as it did to say it, and many times longer than it would have to in reply to an essay that was nominally talking about the same series. Awhile ago, qwirky faced a similar problem when the essay she was addressing made offensive assumptions such as Westerners don't value friendship as much as Easterners. It is difficult to begin to address a blanket statement like that because with which wrong part of do you start? The Westerners, the Easterners? How do you quantify friendship? Even if that was true, how would that lead to your argument?

In this case, the author has made many blanket assumptions. These I cannot entirely address. I cannot say that Ichigo is sexually attracted to docile women, and that Orihime is obviously a docile woman herself. I don't have time to address the similar character-bashing by this author.

Further reading is clouded by issues like this: "But, by his own emission, he says being a vizard is taking a step closer to be a hollow..." [emphasis mine] What sort of emission would that be? Oh, okay, the author meant admission, not what is normally meant when a teenage boy experiences an emission. Alas, the images are already conflated in my head, and it is too late for me to separate Ichigo from his emissions re: being closer to a Hollow.

Regarding arguments in the Lust arc, I do not find proof. Take this quote: He hears her plea and due to his own desperation turns into this form in order to save Orihime. In a way, its like Ichigo is saying: No matter what, I will keep my promise to my self and to Inoue.

I repeat that there is no proof for this assertion. For one, it is arguable whether or not Ichigo knew that the person whose voice he was hearing was Orihime's. This is distinct from the reader knowing he heard Orihime; the reader and Ichigo have different experiences of the same event. What is not arguable is that the first thing he does is blast her face into the ground.



That scene, if you don't remember it.

I've said many times before that this is not protecting. This author argues that Ichigo consciously throwing Rukia to Renji atop the Sokyoku immediately after 150-151 is a sign of his lack of caring; even if that were true, the author does not address the above scene. (At least not that I saw in the section covered by the relevant chapters; I would be lying if I said I had read this thing in its entirety.) I know that there are some who take issue with tone and directions in this community, but let me be blunt: You cannot do that and expect your argument to be taken seriously.
Kylara: Surprizen!karenai on September 27th, 2010 06:03 pm (UTC)
Implied within is an argument that Ichigo is keeping his promise to Orihime and that wakes him up. I've heard this and there is no evidence to indicate that Ichigo is remembering his promise here. Manga is not a subtle medium. If Kubo wanted us to think that Ichigo was acting on the promise he made her, he would have indicated it. At a most basic level, a flashback would have done it; without, some indication through panels or wording that it specifically was the promise as distinct from the begging. That is how you indicate your intentions to the reader; at this level of close reading, I think it resembles an art less and a science more.

You cannot make things up out of thin air. If Ichigo remembers his promise, prove it and with evidence. He certainly never once reflects on his promise during the entire Hueco Mundo arc (as I recall, the first time Ichigo ever flashbacked to Orihime in HM was when he remembered how confused he was over her sadness at Ulquiorra's death), so it is without even limited precedent as evidence.

Going on, this: I was thinking that she thought if he could hear her, maybe it might have an effect with her powers.

In other words, Orihime was calling to Ichigo because she thought that if he could actually hear her, maybe that would awaken up her powers. How? If he reacted, that's indication that he's awake, so it's worth trying her powers after all, because only if he's alive will they work, or only if he is alive is it worth trying? But haven't we established that Orihime's powers are a matter of will and that she can at least in one circumstance bring back the dead? There is no evidence to indicate that Ichigo's ability to hear her or not might have an effect on her powers, or that she would think that at this time or any time.

She yells his name and it takes only once for him to hear her. Instead of blasting Ishida, Ichigo turns and uses the cero on Ulquiorra. Who ever said that Orihime’s love for Ichigo is an ‘Epic Fail’ is wrong, its her love that saves him.

This one is a misreading of a series of physical events unsupported by the text. Ichigo does not use the cero on Ulquiorra because he heard her, but because Ulquiorra just approached him from behind and cut off his horn thus causing the explosion to rupture right next to his head.



Ulquiorra begins to die. Orihime reaches out to him out of compassion because Ulquiorra finally sees the true power of the human heart within her bond with Ichigo. This also makes me believe that it was her calling out Ichigo’s name that brought him back to normal. It showed Ulquiorra the true nature of the human heart.

If that this were true, why is Ulquiorra's poem built around lust for a particular individual, or his vision only focus on Orihime's face, why does he not reach to Ichigo? If it truly was because he sees her bond with Ichigo, why does he only long for Orihime's part in that? As stated for the millionth time, I do not, never have and never will ship Ulquihime, but there are certain unavoidable facts that need to be addressed if one is going to devalue Ulquiorra's feelings towards her and specifically HER at the end of the Lust arc. Those certain unavoidable facts are the manga.

Someone asked me the other day to please write an essay rebutting my ship with a similar amount of force. I cannot do that. I cannot do that because interpreting a manga is not simply a matter of rhetoric skills. Undoubtedly the power of rhetoric is one that can aid or abet any side in a ship debate, but ultimately, the facts and the manga proper cannot be changed, no matter how hard one tries.
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 06:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
r0ck3tsci3ntist - sorry, kidding: yoruichir0ck3tsci3ntist on September 27th, 2010 06:09 pm (UTC)
please delete this post XD
I refute the essay on the grounds that it's probably wank bait - like everything else to do with Bleach shipping these days (yes, even more than in the days of yore) and that there's got to be a circle jerk just waiting with baited breath over at FW.

Which is all to say that this should pretty funny like a Glenn Beck symposium.




/sarcasm (just saying, because, you know, it tends to fly over people's heads in some other places)


Polite enough?


I totally couldn't help myself
_debbiechan_: Chizuru_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 06:16 pm (UTC)
Re: please delete this post XD
I may yet delete it. I doubt it will get reported if only because the main helpful elves who do the reporting don't like stuff that links their own to make F_W. But some of us do get our jollies on the Lust Arc still--and I do realize that we're as boring and funny as Glenn Beck sym posium to some XD. No one's been mean yet so... unless bricks fall after lunch I may community close the essay or something....

people are so tired of shipping but they're free to move along.

hmm, I did make it members only now on second thought--harder to F_W that way, and it is of interest to members of this comm, but I was sort of hoping the original author of the essay would see it and honorably respond. May change my mind later but I need to eat and do Hebrew with my bar mitzvah kid.

Edited at 2010-09-27 06:21 pm (UTC)
Re: please delete this post XD - r0ck3tsci3ntist on September 27th, 2010 06:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: please delete this post XD - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 06:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
shinigami_1nabe on September 27th, 2010 06:24 pm (UTC)
An Attempt at a Response (1)
I was really looking forward to reading a rebuttal essay that was as thought out, logical and well-written as Karenai's piece... In my opinion, Beruhime219's essay didn't come close.

I acknowledge that she / he admitted to her bias and did not hide under the oft-claimed 'neutrality' to disguise her IchiOri-ness.

It was pretty interesting for me to read Bleach from the perspective of someone who only wants to see Inoue and Ichigo's interactions (over-interpret it with rose-coloured romantic goggles).

It's a fairly long essay where the author takes a whole lot of panels and interprets them out of context… it's not an easy feat deconstructing this piece and responding to each point one by one. Let me lay out instead the main arguments (and some examples) that Beruhime219 used to support her thesis that IchiOri trumps IchiRuki, and respond to those. I apologise in advance for the length of this post (if the mods think it's too big a wall of text, please let me know so I can post this elsewhere).

Main Argument # 1: Ichigo and Rukia's moments in the manga are not romantic; Ichigo and Inoue's moments are full of romantic potential.

I find it funny that for someone who has taken the time to overanalyse almost every panel that has Inoue it in, Beruhime219 seems to brush aside almost every bit of Ichigo and Rukia interaction without much thought:

Beruhime219's analysis of the scene where Rukia is taken back to Soul Society: "Byakuya knows why Rukia is attached to Ichigo. He looks like Kaien Shiba. Because Kaien died at her hands, she doesn’t want to be responsible for Ichigo’s death either. It would be like re-living that moment where Kaien died.
Rukia kicks Ichigo off Byakuya because she knew her brother might kill him. With Ichigo still alive, there is a chance he can go on living. She won’t be responsible for taking his life."

Beruhime219's analysis of the bridge scene in the SS arc: "This pretty well sums up Rukia and Ichigo’s relationship: Bicker and fight and nag. He wants to play hero but lets face it, she’s not the type of girl to sit in the corner and scream for help"
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<from [...] http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayg.htm>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

I was really looking forward to reading a rebuttal essay that was as thought out, logical and well-written as Karenai's piece... In my opinion, Beruhime219's essay didn't come close.

I acknowledge that she / he admitted to her bias and did not hide under the oft-claimed 'neutrality' to disguise her IchiOri-ness.

It was pretty interesting for me to read Bleach from the perspective of someone who only wants to see Inoue and Ichigo's interactions (over-interpret it with rose-coloured romantic goggles).

It's a fairly long essay where the author takes a whole lot of panels and interprets them out of context… it's not an easy feat deconstructing this piece and responding to each point one by one. Let me lay out instead the main arguments (and some examples) that Beruhime219 used to support her thesis that IchiOri trumps IchiRuki, and respond to those. I apologise in advance for the length of this post (if the mods think it's too big a wall of text, please let me know so I can post this elsewhere).

Main Argument # 1: Ichigo and Rukia's moments in the manga are not romantic; Ichigo and Inoue's moments are full of romantic potential.

I find it funny that for someone who has taken the time to overanalyse almost every panel that has Inoue it in, Beruhime219 seems to brush aside almost every bit of Ichigo and Rukia interaction without much thought:

Beruhime219's analysis of the scene where Rukia is taken back to Soul Society: "Byakuya knows why Rukia is attached to Ichigo. He looks like Kaien Shiba. Because Kaien died at her hands, she doesn’t want to be responsible for Ichigo’s death either. It would be like re-living that moment where Kaien died.
Rukia kicks Ichigo off Byakuya because she knew her brother might kill him. With Ichigo still alive, there is a chance he can go on living. She won’t be responsible for taking his life."

Beruhime219's analysis of the bridge scene in the SS arc: "This pretty well sums up Rukia and Ichigo’s relationship: Bicker and fight and nag. He wants to play hero but lets face it, she’s not the type of girl to sit in the corner and scream for help" <from http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayg.htm in reference to Ichigo and Rukia bickering in that bridge scene in the SS arc>.

Beruhime219's analysis of that time when Ichigo have Inoue a drink when she was healing Jidanbo: "Ichigo cares about Orihime! He brings her a drink. Why is this significant? Because he doesn’t do this type of stuff for anyone else." <http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayd.htm>

Beruhime219's analysis of that one panel after all was said and done in Soul Society prior to him finding Rukia at the Shiba's house. He runs into Inoue and notices that her outfit has changed: "Even though Orihime is panicked, Ichigo takes time to notice her change of clothing! He had to be looking at other places, not her face, to notice she changed her shirt. If this were just a shounen manga, he would have said “Inoue! What’s wrong?” not “What’s up, and where did you get that outfit?” Orihime keeps the conversation on track and tells him Rukia is missing." <http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayj.htm>

Oh and this takes the cake: "The rain stopping has nothing to do with Rukia making Ichigo happy in the sense of a love relationship. He’s saying the rain stopped because he was able to save Rukia’s life and not feel like the helpless bystander being protected.". This has got to be the most succinct way to disregard what Ichigo is about.

There seems to be a lot of taking panels, focusing on them, taking them out of context, blowing up everything that supports IchiOri, and disregarding everything that may potentially show Ichigo and Rukia's deep relationship, happening in this essay. When Ichigo tells Rukia that she "made the rain stop in his heart", there is nothing romantic about that, but when Ichigo hands Inoue a drink it means he cares deeply for her? Huh.
shinigami_1nabe on September 27th, 2010 06:25 pm (UTC)
An Attempt a Response (2)
Main Argument #2: Rukia is not right for Ichigo because she's violent and insensitive unlike Inoue who is very sensitive and is the only person who gets Ichigo.

Case in point: The "Memories in the Rain" storyline. <http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayb.htm>. Beruhime219 says: "Orihime can relate to Ichigo because they both lost their main care givers at a young age and at important times in their lives. During this time, Rukia is completely insensitive toward Ichigo’s feelings."

And yet in Chapter 397, when Ichigo discovers his father's shinigami secret, Ichigo gives Isshin the same speech that Rukia gave him in "Memories in the Rain". Ichigo further says that those words 'eased' him (implying that the same words would ease Isshin as well).

So. If Rukia was as insensitive as Beruhime219 claims she was in "Memories in the Rain", then why did Ichigo repeat her comforting words to comfort his own father?

As for Inoue being the only one to relate to Ichigo for losing "their main caregivers at a young age and at important times in their lives"… Heh. The same can be said for Ishida, Chad and Rukia, no? (I'm not including Renji because I do not want to assume that he was also abandoned by someone who was took care of him when he was young).

The most interesting for me in the "Memories in the Rain" storyline (it was at this point in the story that IchiRuki was cemented for me) is how Kubo told the story of Masaki and Ichigo. On that day (in that storyline), both Inoue and Rukia discovered Ichigo's story. The difference is that Rukia heard it from Ichigo, was able to witness his guilt and remorse, was able to give him words of comfort, was able to stop him from further hurting himself; Inoue, on the other hand, heard the story via Tatsuki. I am not discounting that Inoue can relate to Ichigo about the loss of a parental figure at a young age (I'd be surprised if she didn't), but Inoue was not the one he shared that loss with. She is not the one (despite her deep desire to be) who gives him comfort, who shows him that she understands.

But then again, Rukia's just someone who likes men with pretty faces, so she probably doesn't count, right? Heh.

There was a bunch of Rukia-bashing in this essay (which makes it unbearable for someone who really likes Rukia). Statements like "Rukia is really insensitive" in reference to the scene where Ichigo goes ballistic over Rukia's idea to go separate ways in Hueco Mundo. Did the Beruhime219 forget the reason why Rukia suggested this was to make it easier to rescue Inoue?

Oh wait, no. Rukia is insensitive because she thought that the reason why Ichigo went ballistic was because he just wants to protect her when he just wanted to protect all of his nakama. <http://orihimelovesichigo.tripod.com/essayo.htm>. Never mind that Ichigo was really worried about Rukia. He only gave in when she told him not to worry about her.
An Attempt at a Response (3) - shinigami_1nabe on September 27th, 2010 06:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (3) - adam_epp on September 28th, 2010 03:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (3) - shinigami_1nabe on September 28th, 2010 05:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
An Attempt at a Response (4) - shinigami_1nabe on September 27th, 2010 06:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (4) - fikuz on September 27th, 2010 07:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (4) - shinigami_1nabe on September 28th, 2010 05:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (4) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 11:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: An Attempt at a Response (4) - shinigami_1nabe on September 28th, 2010 06:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
marvellous monster: snow whitefikuz on September 27th, 2010 06:28 pm (UTC)
Mods, if you see this as inappropriate, please feel free to delete it.

I'm not sure that this essay could be considered a response to karenai's essay. It looks more like a compilation of different posts from ichihime threads and doesn't refute any of the points made by karenai (unless we count *eyerolls* as a rebuttal, of course).

I also fail to see any new points that this essay supposedly brings up.

So far we have:

* complete and utter misunderstanding of Rukia's character (till the point of bashing) as shown in statements such as "Rukia is as naive as Hinamori when it comes to a pretty face", "Rukia gets to fight a really wimpy arrancar"

* a strong case of Renji is our messiah ("You help me save my woman, I'll help you save yours")

* a confusing and messy attempt to make Orihime both responsible for Icigothing and yet not the one to blame ("I was thinking that she thought if he could hear her, maybe it might have an effect with her powers", "He hears her plea and due to his own desperation turns into this form in order to save Orihime", and yet :"He goes on a rampage and quickly tears Ulquiorra apart. Orihime blames herself for Ichigo’s monsterous transformation when it isn’t really her fault")

* blatant disregard of Ichigo's feelings (Orihime's sole purpose of existing is Ichigo. Who cares how Ichigo feels about it, he can't deny her!)

* handicapping Orihime (" Ishida has known since the beginning that Orihime is not cut out for bloodshed or battle", "
Orihime at this point has done everything she could possibly do. Her powers are pretty limited to healing and since that isn’t having any effect...")

* exaggerating Ichigo's reactions to Orihime and dismissing his reactions to Rukia ("Ulquiorra is almost playing a game of keep away. Allowing Ichigo enough space to see Orihime being attacked but keeping him far enough to make him frantic. You never see him get like this over Rukia. His eyes are full of pain, rage, and desperation", "To Ichigo, Orihime’s life is precious and he’s asking Ishida if he’s willing to protect her even if it means dying" and finally : From here on out, its nothing but plot and fights. Rukia and Orihime both drop off the map while Ichigo goes off to save the world. Yet, Ichigo’s last acknowledgement dealing with anything relating to possible relationship status is not about Rukia, but Orihime’s sadness and her pained face. Once again, showing that Orihime has managed a rather exclusive place in his heart)

* assumptions, blatant assumptions, and more assumptions ("I was thinking that she thought if he could hear her, maybe it might have an effect with her powers"... there are too many, I'm just tired of re-reading this essay)

* parallels very loosely related to the main point ("Again with the Beauty and the Beast themes. He turned into a monster because of his despair when he no longer had the power to save her" and a long excerpt about the meaning of "5")

* madness (sorry, Debbie, I tried my best to behave): "Ichigo’s mask broke because of his will power not because Ulquiorra broke a horn off!"," Ichigo’s weakness is he takes compassion even on his enemies"
_debbiechan_: meow_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 06:45 pm (UTC)

Just because they're not substantiated rebuttals doesn't make them non-rebuttals. A chair with three uneven legs is still a chair.

The handicapping Orihime issue could be a WHOLE essay in and of itself. We've gone through this over and over at the Orihime FC at BA and here at bleachness. One of the particular problems of this essay is that it brings up a whole bunch of things believed by probably a very small sector of fandom (I wouldn't generalize to all IchiOri shippers) and may be a pastiche of posts made by this person.

What I do find interesting and even sort of charming about this essay (I'm not being facetious) is that it goes through the whole manga and says "this is HOW I READ BLEACH"). So it's easy to understand what the POV is. Likewise, it's easy to spot where the lapses are in interpretation--for example, just HOW does this author arrive at such and such conclusion? As Ballad said above, there are lots of conjectures--and one could answer them with conjectures in kind and never get any place. But it's easy to say hey--right here you didn't support your point.

That's what nice about these long essays. You can take them and use them to clarify what is and isn't factual in the manga.

And yeah, please don't call any part of the essay "madness"--this is your first warning. XD I was frustrated by that part too. I'm testing your patience here. It's not madness--that's name-calling. It's all kinds of wrong but tell us why Ichigo didn't use his own will power to break his own mask with manga evidence.
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 09:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 09:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 09:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fikuz on September 28th, 2010 06:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 07:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 09:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 09:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 09:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 09:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 10:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 11:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - escarboucle on September 27th, 2010 10:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 10:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 10:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 27th, 2010 10:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 11:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on September 28th, 2010 01:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nehalenia on September 28th, 2010 06:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 06:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fikuz on September 28th, 2010 06:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
i felt the need to reply - nekomata_heika on January 6th, 2012 04:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: i felt the need to reply - fikuz on January 6th, 2012 11:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: i felt the need to reply - nekomata_heika on January 7th, 2012 03:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: i felt the need to reply - _debbiechan_ on January 7th, 2012 08:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: i felt the need to reply - nekomata_heika on January 7th, 2012 09:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Orihime- Derp!nendo_chan on September 27th, 2010 07:05 pm (UTC)
I've read the essay before- I think it came out closer to karenai's than we're thinking. Everyone else has pretty much summed up my feelings towards (or, to be blunt, against) it, so I thought I'd just point this little bit out.
_debbiechan_: 60secondcoming_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 07:41 pm (UTC)

Really? I just now found it. I guess it wasn't exactly championed. I can see why but nonetheless I did read the whole thing.

Maybe I'm just starved to discuss the dome again. Funny how that is. I'm so hoping that Sensei returns there soon.
(Deleted comment)
_debbiechan_: ulqui gif_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 07:39 pm (UTC)

Yes, there was a whole lot of assigning motives--funny how I glossed over that. I guess I was still wavering on cold meds or something--usually that sort of thing gets my ire up right away but definitely, that sort of thing has no place in an essay. I guess I looked right away for the things to agree and disagree on that had nothing to do with how the author saw shippers. I'm too used to not taking the accusations personally maybe--also IshiHime shippers don't get knocked around much and I'm not hardcore IchiRuki or UlquiHime--I just really like them and I guess see them in romantic situations in canon.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 08:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - maewie on September 28th, 2010 01:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on September 28th, 2010 04:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
_debbiechan_: meow_debbiechan_ on September 27th, 2010 08:00 pm (UTC)

Note while I'm spot-checking Hebrew--now really, no one wants to, for the sake of argument, agree that this essay does do some good things? For example, it does argue successfully that Orihime is not a stalker--and don't deny that you haven't heard that thrown around in fandom before. The essay makes repeated points that Orihime is not obsessed with Ichigo--not many that couldn't be counteracted with other examples from the manga but definitely enough to convince a reader "Inoue Orihime is not a stalker."

Also, the essay brings up the challenge of whether or not Rukia is ever as intimately portrayed with anyone else as she is with Renji when she's in his arms as he defends her against Aizen et al in SS. Or maybe the author cites the chapter cover where Rukia and Renji are back to back as intimate--it is, arguably, because Renji's back is nude.

These are all issues that don't have anything to do with Ky's essay and crux of her points but they do speak to general shipping issues and they were presented more or less in an organized way throughout a long personal reading of the manga.

I found it all pretty interesting. I found I could check off stuff I agreed with and disagreed with.

Like I said earlier, maybe I'm just antsy for Kubo-sensei to return to the Dome and resolve some of the questions people have had for over a year and a half. Maybe most of fandom is sick of the dome debates. I think Sensei's played my impatience pretty well--I've gone from can't bear to speculate to HAVE TO SPECULATE to don't DARE speak to me of the dome to now, PLEASE, LET'S GET TO IT NAO.