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23 April 2010 @ 07:38 pm
Bleach Chapter 175-- Or "How did Rukia get that darned Hougyoku, anyway?"-- THE RECKONING  
Yo.

MSN consensus has it that I should repost to this comm my 'How the **** did Rukia get that ****ing Hougyoku' thread that I started way back in 2007 and which has persisted to this day. It stands as my lone worthwhile contribution to Bleach 'fandom' and as a result I am quite proud of it. Other than that time I pointed out Ju-Ni's translators totally screwed up Matsumoto's conversation to Orihime in the manga that one time and got crazy psycho hate mail for it. BUT ANYWAY

Please to enjoy its fine high-quality and post any observations or pages of manga and/or dialogue you might have which are pertinent to the subject.



My subject is chapter 175-- Specifically, the concept of when Rukia got the Hougyoku-- before she came to the living world, or after? This has been a sticking point for a while among people and its gonna be tricky because it's less of a word issue than it is a grammar issue.

Let's line these babies up. Using M-R for the home team today because Ju-Ni didn't translate this back in the day.

JP Raw

Manga Rain

M7

Side-by-side text comparison--
JP Raw: Aizen: "Sono toki kare ga kakushibasho toshite eranta no ga/Kimi da Kuchiki Rukia"
Ichigo: "Nan....datte...?"
Aizen: "Boku ga sono koto wo tsuki tometa toki/Kimi wa suya ni gense de yukuefumei ni natta ato datta" <-- this is the important line, because it shows us what/when Aizen knew of where the Hougyoku was and why Rukia had gone missing.

Manga-Rain
: Aizen: "The place he chose to hide it in/Was you, Kuchiki Rukia"
Ichigo: "Wh...What did you say...?"
Aizen: "By the time I discovered this/You had already gone missing in the real world"

M7:Aizen: "The location that he chose/Was within you, Kuchiki Rukia"
Ichigo: "What...did you say...?"
Aizen: "When I discovered that/Your whereabouts were still unknown"

M7's translations are usually shit, but this one is actually not TOO bad, although much more vague than the MR one.


1. Aizen searched for the Hougyoku's location
2. By the time he learned where it was hidden, Rukia (the 'place' he refers to where the Hougyoku was hidden) has already disappeared in the living world.
3. This leads him to state-- Aizen: "I knew intuitively/That this was all Urahara Kisuke's doing." -- namely, Aizen knew that Urahara was behind Rukia's 'disappearance' in the living world. It merely confirmed to Aizen what he already knew-- That Rukia had it-- and that Urahara was going to attempt to hide it by concealing her in the power-draining gigai.

From these three statements it's easy to see what went down-- As per a recent blurb in the HM arc from Aizen, Urahara never used the Hougyoku. (LOL, retcon by Kubo? Clearly he -DID- use it at least once-- Vizoreds.)  He sealed it almost immediately after its creation, and after many attempts to destroy it (all of which failed), he hid it in 'a place' (I.E. Rukia) in an attempt to conceal what he could not destroy.


This link right here <--- is a link to MelodyMix's translation of the sourcebooks expounding further on the subject-- Rukia didn't get the orb from the gigai. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOU READ THIS LINK for further understanding on the timeframe in which Rukia must have received the orb.

This link right here and the original source link for the quote in question <---are links to pages with the most recent excerpts of Jaina's interview with Kubo in...San Diego, I think? as to when Rukia got the Hougyoku. From Kubo's answer it's clear that it's not as simple as 'lol gigai'.


1. Aizen's monologue in 398 further highlights the point that Rukia was the person the orb had been hidden in by Urahara, previous to the events of Bleach's first chapter.

Click here for page


The pertinent text:

Aizen: "Who ordered Kuchiki Rukia to be stationed in the material world?"
Aizen: "Do you really think that from the creation of the Hougyoku/For over a period of 100 years/I could not ascertain its location?"

This tying back in to what Aizan said to Ichigo waaaaaaaaaaay back in SS arc:

Aizen: "The place he chose to hide it in/Was you, Kuchiki Rukia"
Ichigo: "Wh...What did you say...?"
Aizen: "By the time I discovered this/You had already gone missing in the real world"

Aizen already knew who had it. He just lied about the timeframe that he figured it out in. He didn't 'discover' who had it when Rukia went missing, he knew who had it because he was the one who sent her to Karakura, knowing she had it.

Before the conclusion, two more pages to cement this from 401:

Page the first

Page the second


The text:
Aizen: "And then, with a theory as to the ability of the Hougyoku in my hands--"
Aizen: "I sent Kuchiki Rukia to the side of Kurosaki Ichigo."


Why precisely would Aizen, curious in seeing the abilities of the Hougyoku, send Rukia to Ichigo? Because he knew she had the orb inside of her from the start, and wanted to see what its effect would be on Ichigo, who Aizen (and now the reader) has been made aware has 'special qualities'-- Daddy's epic reaction face ties into this.

There is no mention or even allusion in this chapter to the idea that Urahara was in possession of the orb at the start of the manga and passed it off to Rukia via the gigai for some unknown reason. The facts and events behind this are made blindingly clear:
1. Urahara gave Rukia the orb at a date preceeding the start of the manga. When exactly this was is unknown, but considering the date of Urahara's exile and the period of time Aizen mentions having searched for it (100 years), we can presume it was at the end of the TBTP arc.
2. Aizen over the course of 100 years of study and research on the orb discovered its location but declined to make a move until he had more information.
3. Ichigo reaching an age suitable for testing and Aizen having come to a workable hypothesis on the orb's abilities, decided to test it by sending Rukia (who was in possession of the orb) to Ichigo to observe the effects.
4. Aizen having witnessed the results of the test  tips SS, Byakuya, Renji etc to Rukia's location and gives them gear specially tuned to find her to recall Rukia back to SS in a dual plan to not only recover the orb, but to further Ichigo's development.

Aizen's hand was the catalyst behind Rukia being stationed in the human world, which answers a lot of questions about why he didn't just go there and force-gank the orb out of her. He was running an experiment.

Questions left unanswered at this time:
1. At what precise date Rukia received the orb
2. For what reason she was given possession of it
3. What purpose Urahara had when hiding it

As this is still an evolving issue in the manga, it will take time to fully unravel the hows and whys behind it, but I think it's fairly clear between the Databook, the JP manga and Kubo's coy comment that whenever Rukia received the orb, it WAS NOT at the start of the manga, from the gigai or anything else.

This should help clear up any confusion that the last chapter caused.
 
 
Current Mood: okayokay
 
 
 
The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 23rd, 2010 11:43 pm (UTC)
Also haha, my HTML is like a BOSS.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on April 23rd, 2010 11:58 pm (UTC)

ILU Guildy and your devotion to theories of the hougyoku. How does it feel to have been proven RIGHT (there's that word again---no, all opnions are NOT valid--some turn out to be RIGHT) after all these years? XD

Yes, it was in San Diego that our beloved jaina asked Kubo-sensei when the hougyoku was placed into Rukia. It was the ONE question I was mostly looking forward to his answering and the charming bastard said, "It's a secret!"

The evidence that the hougyoku was not put into Rukia by Urahara with the gigai grew stronger with the release of the databooks and chapters 00a-b, and this week we have further confirmation (well, from Aizen that is) that the hougyoku was present in Rukia from chapter one of Bleach. And what do you know? Some people are STILL saying it's the hougyoku! An old nemesis of mine at another forum, this guy who loves to diss Kubo, was going "plothole! plothole! Rukia got the hougyoku when Urahara gave her the gigai!" and I was laughing my ass off.

Good week. Feels good to be right, doesn't it? XD

Edited at 2010-04-23 11:58 pm (UTC)
Oh lawd - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh lawd - _debbiechan_ on April 24th, 2010 12:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh lawd - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cclemon on April 24th, 2010 02:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:11 am (UTC)
I hesitate to attribute to Urahara something so massively incompetent.

But I guess we'll find out.
andrew_jpandrew_jp on April 24th, 2010 12:17 am (UTC)
Baaah!

You're willing to admit that Aizen lied at Soukyoku Hill...why not consider the possibility that he's lying now?

Consider what it means to say that he sent Rukia to Karakura to test the hougyoku's power: that Aizen put the tool he values most within the grasp of his archnemesis, Urahara Kisuke. Does that make any sense, at all?

Rukia's not very old, by shinigami standards. If she was even in the Soul Society at the end of TBTP, she would have been an infant, living in the slums. Did Urahara even have time to go out there?

Not to mention, if it was inside her the whole time, the hougyoku didn't exactly do a great job fulfilling Rukia's desires.
_debbiechan_: meow_debbiechan_ on April 24th, 2010 12:30 am (UTC)


Did Urahara even have time to go out there?


That's been discussed before. Yoruichi was on the scene at the end of the TBTP arc. And as everyone knows, she's FAST.
ooo - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: ooo - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: ooo - andrew_jp on April 24th, 2010 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: ooo - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 02:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
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V to the A to the D-E-R (Vader!)jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:35 am (UTC)
Good point about the other mission (although I don't believe it was specifically in Karakura--that'd make sense if that's when it happened, though). I don't really think Rukia had amnesia of it, though--she only kinda goes "ehhh" and we don't see her face, and that's followed by a lot of babble from the third seats. That strikes me more as it not being as vivid or important a memory for her, or not really knowing what to say--I could see Urahara erasing the memory of a specific encounter during a mission, but forgetting the mission entirely would stick out like a sore thumb to others if the subject came up, and quite possibly draw unwanted attention to him.
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(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:35 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - cheshire_hare on April 24th, 2010 12:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:57 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cheshire_hare on April 24th, 2010 01:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - cheshire_hare on April 24th, 2010 01:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - the_orange_rat on April 24th, 2010 02:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - the_orange_rat on April 24th, 2010 06:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - jaina on April 24th, 2010 01:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - fmphoenixhawk on April 24th, 2010 11:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Silvia: damn kidsnightshade_ave on April 24th, 2010 01:23 am (UTC)
While I read and digest this awesome theory yet again, I must express my jealousy as these supposed parties on MSN.
The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:39 am (UTC)
Don't be too jealous, 99% of the time my commentary consists of "BALLS, ALSO DONGS ICHIGO IS A GHEY" and MSN emote spam.

Occasionally I will say something intelligent, but I have to work up to it.
(no subject) - nightshade_ave on April 24th, 2010 02:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on April 24th, 2010 01:48 am (UTC) (Expand)
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The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 01:39 am (UTC)
Link me the page you're talking about, please?
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(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on April 24th, 2010 01:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
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Ava: shippervisforvanilla on April 24th, 2010 04:08 am (UTC)
I always imagined it that they Hogyuhlffthingy was snuck in Rukia's cereal one fateful morning. She thought that her chappy tasted extra powerful that morning.

So let me get this straight, if Aizen is telling the truth, Orihime wished for God-like power from the bottom of her heart? Chad's wish for power was more reasonable ( a giant arm that would match ALL his outfits). I hope Urahara comes and explains everything soon.


Damn you Golden Week. D:
The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:20 am (UTC)
WARNING EXISTENTIAL BULLSHIT INCOMING
I like Orihime (esp. from the early manga) but one of the things I've maintained from an early point is that Orihime's power is NOT a positive one. Her wish wasn't for Godlike power, her subconcious wish was for a power to reject reality, because she herself rejects it. Her power isn't a healing power by any stretch of the imagination. It's a power to reject events. That she uses it to heal at times does not make it a healing power or even a very nurturing one. It's a scary power, just as Chad's Hollow arm is freakish.

Her power is Godlike because her powers of denial are legendary.
Re: WARNING EXISTENTIAL BULLSHIT INCOMING - escarboucle on April 24th, 2010 02:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: WARNING EXISTENTIAL BULLSHIT INCOMING - ylla19 on April 24th, 2010 05:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: WARNING EXISTENTIAL BULLSHIT INCOMING - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 07:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: WARNING EXISTENTIAL BULLSHIT INCOMING - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 08:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Gaming: a way of life - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 09:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 05:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on April 24th, 2010 07:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 07:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 24th, 2010 08:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 08:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 09:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Anonymous) on April 24th, 2010 04:09 am (UTC)
Why is Rukia the first one who had Hougyoku inside her body? Why is she being chosen? Why she?
That's the million dollar question... *A*
The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:25 am (UTC)
Knowing Kubo, it's going to turn out to be something like----
Urahara: "I needed a person with no tits to conceal the orb. :D"
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on April 26th, 2010 10:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
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mrdracospirit on April 24th, 2010 10:27 am (UTC)
Hum.... That might not be that crack thinking about it... well the general gist anyway.
(no subject) - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 11:14 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - secila80 on April 24th, 2010 05:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - marionette71088 on April 25th, 2010 02:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(Anonymous) on April 24th, 2010 04:57 pm (UTC)
I have the idea that Urahara put it on a baby Rukia after Hisana left her..
Oh it will be utterly cute to see a baby Rukia!! XD
Adam Eppadam_epp on April 24th, 2010 05:45 pm (UTC)
Bleach Chapter 175-- Or "How did Rukia get that darned Hougyoku, anyway?"-- THE RECKONING

More like THE RETCONNING. This whole matter is so confusing since Kubo keeps on altering established points, like Aizen's statement about not initially knowing where the possessor of the Hougyoku was (Aizen: i wuz lying lol). I hope Kubo's got some nice explanation for this, since I'm having trouble suspending my disbelief in regard to Aizen's onslaught of new "revelations."
secila80secila80 on April 24th, 2010 05:54 pm (UTC)
Bleach recently has required a degree of brain numbing hitherto unnecessary. I'm sure when the tingling stops everything will be alright. Although I don't think I'll be able to kick out of my head the thought that Aizen is less intelligent because he both retreated to lying and admitted it.
(no subject) - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 06:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Retcon 2: Electric Boogaloo - velvetsword on April 24th, 2010 08:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Retcon 2: Electric Boogaloo - adam_epp on April 24th, 2010 09:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Re: Retcon 2: Electric Boogaloo - adam_epp on April 25th, 2010 06:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
Shaima: bleachylla19 on April 24th, 2010 05:55 pm (UTC)
Oh, thanks very much for this entry. I was so confused after reading 401, and I needed to refresh my memory regarding the hougyouko incidents. While reading the chapter, I was thinking if I may have forgotten the past chapters or Kubo Tite was the one who forgot about certain things in the manga. LOL

I shall prepare myself for some more confusing (I wish not) revelations from Aizen, just so I am armed. XD
oh gallant piglet,aizome on April 24th, 2010 06:38 pm (UTC)
Very interesting! I can't say it has stopped my head spinning trying to figure this out, but at the very least it eliminates the whole "LOL gigal" theory. Thanks for sharing. :D
manonlechat: yoruichi singsmanonlechat on April 24th, 2010 07:03 pm (UTC)
Makes sense to me.
The Main Gauche of Enlightenmentvelvetsword on April 24th, 2010 08:44 pm (UTC)
I'd her afro.
sleepwalkersleepwalkerrrr on April 24th, 2010 09:11 pm (UTC)
Some things that still are pretty unclear to me:

-How did Aizen plan Rukia to lose, and precisely make a wish to transfer HER powers to Ichigo instead of protecting him HERSELF
*was it unknown to Aizen what would happen there, and it was part of his experiment with Ichigo and Hougyoku ?
-In what kind of situations does Hougyoku work, since there were a lot of situations where it could've make Rukia's wishes come true (like when she was taken away and about to be executed, then again, she was saved in time by the same man she regretted to never see again before the collision with the flaming_bird_sword)
*it was said that it was sealed, so maybe it didn't function very well inside of Rukia after all ?

Meh, we're living the times where we should just wait for the next chapter
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - sleepwalkerrrr on April 28th, 2010 07:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)