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07 February 2010 @ 09:58 am
Bleachness Feedback Day *FEEDBACK* <3  

Wow, thank you all so much for your feedback. Usually about 80-100 people participate in my useless polls but this last one may have been deemed not so useless after all because at last count, over two hundred people had participated. That’s roughly twenty percent of the membership of bleachness  . That’s a fairly high participatory rate--it’s been my experience with forums, fanclubs, and comms that most members are there to read/lurk, they are not there to comment or contribute or even check ticky boxes. Nonethess, the number of people who delurked to participate in this poll heartened me because I really did want your imput (I’m always curious about you quiet ones).

Thank you too for those of you who send private messages of support or took time to leave detailed honest comments in that Bleachness Feedback Day entry. The comments are already scrunched up by LJ’s formatting and I’ve decided not to reply to them all individually but to write this post in response to what I’ve heard from bleachness  members.

First, I’m glad to hear that an overwhelming majority of members are here for the discussion and that most members are happy with the character of the community as it is. That’s what I figured even though I’ve always been fully aware of members’ concerns and I’ve always had this or that problem myself with how this community has been developing in the past year.

1. I’m going to clarify the bleachness rules and guidelines to incorporate some of what apparently helped horusguard76  (her post here) understand the character of the community better. Namely this subthread here (Jenni, you should really be my lawyer). I’m also aware that, roughly, at least ten percent of those polled have expressed dissatisfaction with this community. Given that anywhere you go there’s going to be complaining and given that lately just about every BLEACH online site you go to is going to be complaining about the manga and its fans, I find that percentage reassuringly low. Nonetheless, I’m aware of what the concerns are--tone of discourse, tense threads not being diffused promptly or insults not being moderated well enough, too much repetition of shipping agendas. I’ll see what I can do about these issues.

2. I personally have had no issue with people posting fic and art throughout the week without my prior authorization or blessing, but I have considered that as the community grows, this might get to be a problem or may even change the nature of the comm. Even though other places like kurosaki_clinic  exist for bleach fanworks, I really like people sharing their stuff here. The poll shows people like it too. My co-maintainers and myself are going to discuss having a “one day a week only” event during which members can pimp their own fanwork or rec other fanworks in the comments section of one mod-posted entry. This idea came about because of this subthread in the feedback post. Any further ideas on this subject are welcome, but ultimately it’s my decision. Stay tuned.

3. None of the mods want to disable anonymous comments. Most of the anonymous posters here have been wonderful, and I’ve made some wonderful personal contacts from people who did not have LJ accounts and who first contacted me via anon post on bleachness . Because of the heavy trolling atmosphere of the Bleach fandom, though, anyone posting anon and making a challenging statement can be expected to be greeted with some suspicion by myself as well as the general membership; you may be only wanting to have discussion but you may be accused wanting to incite wank. There’s an explicit unfairness here to anon posters, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. I may add this caveat to the bleachness rules and guidelines

Lastly, of all the hundreds of PMs and comments I read this morning (I started at 4 a.m. and wasn’t through by breakfast at 7), this one made me the happiest. If this community changed even one person’s mind about Orihime’s character, I’m all rainbows and sunshine today.

Please feel free to continue to add comments here or to the Bleachness Feedback Day entry about your thoughts and feelings regarding this community and always feel free to contact me, _debbiechan_ or the other modsjaina and karenai .

manonlechat: gin ichimarumanonlechat on February 7th, 2010 04:57 pm (UTC)
I’m also aware that, roughly, at least ten percent of those polled have expressed dissatisfaction with this community.


Just a bit of clarification. I'm one of the 33 fans so far who checked "is a little abrasive but I tolerate it because I like other things here" which I interpreted to be the middle option between "just fine" and "intimidating" (the word "intimidating" seemed too negative and strong to describe my opinion). But I am dissatisfied with certain things that have been cropping up lately at the comm (tl;dr, There sometimes seems to be an unwritten "IchiHime fan" exception to Guideline 3. The guideline that states Insults against choices or tastes are discouraged--as in “Hitsugaya fans are all a bunch of ….” This type of rudeness should be jumped upon by not only mods but community members. Bias against a group of people isn’t cool.).

I love your comm and I don't want to be Negative Nellie (and I can't speak for other people who voted as I did) but I felt like I should clarify. If you include the 33 fans who find at least some elements abrasive with the 11 who find it intimidating, you have 44 people who find at least some of what they experience here occasionally problematic. Compared to the 134 who clicked "just fine", the rough percentage becomes not 10 percent, but a solid third. [Final edit because I realized with "choose all that apply" there's no way to accurately count without looking at individual votes.]

Again, I clarify only because the poll choices were a little informal. This is not intended to be a personal slam or a full blown declaration of hate toward bleachness. I should add that I am also one who voted that bleachness should retain its shipping identity as an IchiRuk/UlquiHime friendly comm.

Edited at 2010-02-07 05:13 pm (UTC)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 7th, 2010 05:32 pm (UTC)
I wanted to vote "little abrasive" myself XD but yes, the poll wasn't deadly accurate as to what it meant by that. The tone of discourse other people use is sometimes too rowdy for me--other times it's too meek. Usually I don't complain about tone. I understood those answers as saying there's not much you can do about tone, but the poll sampling that indicated that people wanted a stronger mod presence was in the 20 percent so coupled with that "bleachness is abrasive" response I got a rough 10% complaint. But I'm not a math person and this wasn't a scientific poll, obviously.

From just looking over the VERY INFORMAL results I see roughly the same 7-12 people making the strongest objections and I believe that their positions merit listening to because others may hold them as well if not to an extreme degree.

Also there was no option for "do you think this community is anti-IchiHime" because I thought that was a wank topic in and of itself. The criticisms made here in this community before were by members who felt offended by the overwhelming IchiRuki presence and its "smugness."

Edited at 2010-02-07 05:42 pm (UTC)
America's Next Top Hermit: atla: katara zuko aang *conflict*profoundly_grey on February 7th, 2010 06:34 pm (UTC)
I, too, put that sometimes the community can seem rather abrasive, but that I am fine with that. I am intimidated to post sometimes but will declare that it has nothing to do with the community itself, but rather my own inadequacies when it comes to discussing and debating (which would probably be helped if I actually posted more rather than lurked, but oh well). Also, I do see this community as heavily Ichigo/Rukia with Ishida/Orihime and Ulquiorra/Orihime being close seconds, and I have no issue with that as I have no interest in those ships (which does not make me unbiased, as everyone has bias), but those who ship the rivals are given a very cold attitude here even if said shipper admits to knowing the likelihood of their ship becoming canon is nil. I will say though that I generally become uncomfortable in shipping discussions here due to the fact it often sounds too similar to the canon militants in the Avatar fandom.

Of course, this is not something that can be helped by rules, but rather the attitudes of those who post and comment themselves. I just thought I'd give my two cents on the subject, and honestly feel that there's nothing really to fix in the community and agree that the community's just going through some growing pains.

(Excuse the run-ons, my grammar sucks today.)

Edited at 2010-02-07 06:39 pm (UTC)
ann89103: Hisagi: Reapann89103 on February 7th, 2010 06:34 pm (UTC)
I believe that their positions merit listening to

Thank you.

The criticisms made here in this community before were by members who felt offended by the overwhelming IchiRuki presence and its "smugness."

Just to clarify: I'm not offended by IchiRuki, and in fact see it as one of the most plausible het ships based on the source material. I also think everyone should be able to celebrate the characters (and parings!) they love - just without taking the additional step of bashing other characters or the people who like them.

I also do not consider the comm to be "smug." I find certain comments abrasive, but that's to be expected. And that is a small part of the comm experience, considering how many posts are made and how many people participate.

I think the thing that's frustrated me most in all this is the 'if you don't like it, why are you here?' and 'we have a bias, go somewhere else if you don't like it' type of comments. Well, because I do like the place, and I do like a spiritied (if polite) conversation and it's better to talk these things out.

There is a big difference between the suggestions left here by people who do belong to the community/the polite anons and any commentary done on Fandom Wank or other sites that I've missed. I think some people are confusing the two and misunderstandings result.

I still want that Hisagi essay too.
manonlechat: hangin out with rangikumanonlechat on February 7th, 2010 06:53 pm (UTC)
Thank you for not taking my words as an attack. :)

For the record, "anti-IchiHime" in theory doesn't bother me much either (though I understand it might bother some). This isn't a general comm. I find the attitude that one can't critically discuss ships as silly as the idea that one can't critically discuss politics or religion (with the caveat that courtesy is a virtue and there is a time and a place for everything). I wouldn't be offended--in theory--by "anti-UlquiHime" on a pro-IchiHime LJ. It's the generalizing that tends to follow, the loss of nuance and areas of grey in the debates, the bashing of others because of their differing taste in a manga character's love life (reality check everybody), and the development of Us (Good) vs. Them (Evil) mindsets in which Ship Identification becomes the dividing standard instead of sane behavior or intelligence of discourse.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 7th, 2010 07:02 pm (UTC)

the development of Us (Good) vs. Them (Evil) mindsets in which Ship Identification becomes the dividing standard instead of sane behavior or intelligence of discourse.

Yeah. It's this mentality that starts wars. I would like to believe that most of the members of this community in their most clear and rational moments acknowledge that there are jerkwads and idiots in every faction/ship/group as well as there are exemplary ones. Generalizations about real people may have their place but are not only unfair but unnecessary in talking about many issues--they are certainly unnecessary when discussing the Bleach manga.
_debbiechan_: meow_debbiechan_ on February 7th, 2010 07:20 pm (UTC)

oh, and so far I've noted that 23 people want LESS NAKED ISHIDA but sorry to say that as long as I'm maintainer of this community (and that MAY be a long time seeing as I've paid for a lifelong account with LJ), that ain't gonna happen. XD

But the anti-naked, anti-Ishida, no yaoi position of members is noted. XD Maybe when I turn over this comm it will be to a naked Matsumoto lover. XD
silverkun2silverkun2 on February 8th, 2010 12:01 am (UTC)
Ahahahaha! *dies laughing* I totally expected this. I was one of the ones who voted "no naked Ishida" just cause I'm not into that kind of thing. I personally don't like seeing lewd fanart of any kind, but I generally don't find it a problem here so I don't complain. Still, I voted for the Less Ishida option anyways because I thought your reaction to said votes would be hilarious. I was right. xD
tamzin: murachaaaanconquistadora on February 8th, 2010 09:17 am (UTC)
I think most of those votes were made in jest XD, but if I'm wrong, then *grabs Quincy Cross and prays for their poor souls*
selenityshiroiselenityshiroi on February 7th, 2010 05:03 pm (UTC)
I didn't post a detailed comment in yesterday's post, but I just wanted to say that I like this community because, in general, it has many members who read the manga in the same way I do.

The discussions tend to be deep and interesting (sometimes too deep for me to get involved in, since I have such poor thoughts->words skills), which makes me thinks so much better of Bleach fandom. The ships favoured by the group tend to be ones that I ship or respect. The fanarts and fanfics recced here tend to be high quality works that I can enjoy (although, I have to agree about some of the 'self pimping' comments-this doesn't really seem like the most appropriate comm for it, especially since this place started out as your personal fanwork journal).

Bleach fandom scares me at times. I read the chapter discussions at BA and am horrified by the character bashing and author bashing that goes on (so horrified that sometimes I have to abandon the place). I see posts on my f-list about stalking and ship wars and personal attacks (I'm pretty sure I had a troll trying to friend me a few weeks back because of who's f-list I'm on). I see immature posters who need to get smacked down in the BA Fan Clubs for posting ship bashing comments and character hate posts.

But I've never really seen that side of fandom here, unless it's been linked to in despair. (I have to agree with your hatred of fandom_wank and fandom_secrets and some such)

I can understand why some people wouldn't enjoy this comm, especially if they don't ship Ichiruki or they don't like the heavy discussions.

But then I have to ask what they are doing here then.

Comms don't have to cater to every individual's needs. That's just the way society in general works. There are many different comms out there and, if this one doesn't meet someone's expectations, then they can always create their own.

And no one is forcing them to watch this comm, either. I've never understood the obsession people have with 'spying on the opposition'. Okay, sure it can lead to some interesting discussions, sometimes, but most of the time it's just stirring the crap for the sake of it or rubbing salt on open wounds (which causes painful lashing out). (Just like those people who every week insult the manga or the author in the BA Chapter threads-why even read the thing if you hate it so much)

Gah, this is turning a bit wanky itself. Sorry.

Anyway, I love this comm. But I think that a reason WHY I love it is because, at the heart of it, this doesn't try to be a generic Bleach comm. It doesn't try to please everyone, it doesn't try to represent every tiny part of Bleach or it's fandom.

This comm was started on your love of this manga (through your fic) and that's why it's captured so many members who also love this manga, in a similar way.
Becky: Stock - Photosgully_moe on February 7th, 2010 05:19 pm (UTC)
Hm, I just want to say that I kind of disagree with posting fan works only under one entry. I don't think people would get as much attention that way. I know because I don't think I would recheck the entry all the time, out of forgetfulness. I'd like to see fanworks posted in their own seperate entries just so I don't miss them.

To maybe make it easier, maybe make a rule, like 1 entry per user a week, if someone wanted to post a multi chapter fic or multiple arts.

Otherwise, I don't see a problem with people posting fanworks. It really isn't as spammy as most communities can be.
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Uryuu- I AM A DORKnendo_chan on February 7th, 2010 07:20 pm (UTC)
In regards to the "IchiRuki" tone- I'm not seeing it. Maybe it's because I ship the couple, but to me, IshiHime and RenIshi have always been "the ships" of this comm. Then again, I get almost all my goodies for those ships here, so again, it might just be me. No community is perfect, but I feel this one is very accepting of all ships/ideas. I don't know how many IchiHime fans there are here, but if they really are a minority, maybe it's just chance. Shipping prefs do factor into whether or not someone joins a community, but since this is in name a general community about Bleach, I think it's mostly coincidence. I bet if you did a poll, you could find fans of pretty much every pairing, character, and theory imaginable. In short, I find Bleachness to be an awesome, thought-provoking, and very friendly environment.
_debbiechan_: renishi omg by orin_debbiechan_ on February 8th, 2010 09:58 am (UTC)

IshiHime and RenIshi have always been "the ships" of this comm.

Haha, those are MY ships. The reason that they might appear to be the ships of the comm is that I always somehow sneakily arrange for contests featuring them near my birthday every year.^^
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: RenIshinendo_chan on February 8th, 2010 02:07 pm (UTC)
I approve! xD
(Deleted comment)
sleepwalkersleepwalkerrrr on February 7th, 2010 08:37 pm (UTC)
I personally need to say that I love this direction Debbie. People are able to present critic constructively and get proper answers.

I don't myself agree with all the comments about unjustified attacks happening in here, maybe it's because that I've seen that people who are usually victims of some snapping comments have been heavily influencing the outcome with some outrageous wanking, directly or indirectly, that really doesn't occur here. But then again I don't visit here that much, and yeah I agree that sometimes there are some uncalled comments (but in such a small level that I wouldn't call this comm problematic at all; every place in internet where you can discuss indirectly with other people is bound to have heated moments and forgotten manners, so it's uncalled for to say Bleachness is bashful or hateful IMO).

But with an attitude like this from moderators, with polls, listening, answering etc I'd give a 10 to this community because this shows that if there are problems here then instead of more wank this place evolves over those problems. This is something that not every place can achieve.
descrimedescrime on February 7th, 2010 09:23 pm (UTC)
I love the idea of people linking to their fanworks under one entry, but that's because I watch this community solely for the discussions, so I would be highly biased. ^^
oh gallant piglet,: fighting spiritaizome on February 8th, 2010 12:28 am (UTC)
I gotta chime in with the ones whose opinions changed about Orihime thanks to this comm. I was a hater (or well, one who strongly disliked her) before, but what swayed me was that you were NOT doing the polar opposite: portraying her as some perfect, flawless fairy princess (something which irritates me just as much as her recent helplessness). You see her as she is: a character with strengths AND weaknesses, who doesn't deserve the excess hate but whose faults and mistakes also can not be ignored. So yeah, thanks for that! :)
SilvaNoir: Orihimexilvrin on February 8th, 2010 01:30 am (UTC)
Yeah, I think a "fanfic day" and "fanart day" would be a good idea. Maybe on a slower Bleach day of the week (when new chapters/anime eps aren't out)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 8th, 2010 01:43 am (UTC)

manonlechat wrote: There sometimes seems to be an unwritten "IchiHime fan" exception to Guideline 3. The guideline that states Insults against choices or tastes are discouraged--as in “Hitsugaya fans are all a bunch of ….” This type of rudeness should be jumped upon by not only mods but community members. Bias against a group of people isn’t cool.

I went comment hunting for places where anti IchiOri remarks may have gone without reprimand by any community members or mods. Granted, I'm just skimming for now but I looked in the most likely places--starting with the comment section of a controversial shipping essay. I hadn't been keeping up with the comments there. I was pleased to catch one of my own mods on the job in this subthread here.

karenai wrote: I beg your pardon. This is a place for discussion about ships, not a place for name calling. I may argue against the Ichihime ship being canon, but I must correct you if you think this is the location for you to call it "lameness absurdity". Please keep things civil and we will have no problems here.

Welcome to Bleachness and Livejournal.

Now if this is what people would like to see more of when someone makes a sweeping negative generalization about group of fans, you need to PM mods and/or respond to those negative comments with comments of your own calling the poster on the rude generalization.
(Anonymous) on February 8th, 2010 10:51 am (UTC)
Hi Debbie, this is april from BA. I don't have LJ account so I'm sorry if this is anon comment :-)

I just would like to say I love Bleachness. Not because this comm has many Ichiruki goodies (I love Ichiruki to death :-D), but because this is one of the fandom comm that has in depth, there I say intelligent discussion about bleach. Of course arguments happens, but I think that is because most of you active participants are very passionate about bleach. From my reading, you debbie does not like rude behaviour, such as name calling and such. So I don't see any problem with the current situation. You and the other mod almost closely watch what happens here. So in general, this comm is verryy fine :-D

About the "smugness" tone as some would call, I think it happens mostly when the outcome of the manga proves what you all have been said/predicted a long chapters ago. So I don't think that's a problem. If I prove correct in reading my manga by Kubo the author, of course I will feel "smug". Just like when we can discover the outcome of an Agatha Christie novel :-D

Especially for "Ichiruki smugness" case, I think it is because most of the member here feel that Ichiruki is very closely related to the story of Bleach. Indeed some of you said "Ichiruki is bleach". So when Rukia does not afraid of Ichigo's mask in ch 378 for example, "the smugness" tone will be out. Not because OMG Ichiruki finally has reunion (that is fangirl tone he3x), but because most of you defended that indeed Rukia is the person who understand Ichigo the most to others who don't belive that looonngg before ch 378. It is just my feeling IMHO.

Many members here do not like character/story assasination, so if one calls me to read the manga again because I said Ichithing is a positive outcome for Ichigo's power up, IMHO, I would read the manga again. I will try to see why other people think that Ichithing is bad. Especially when Kubo then supports it like by making doodle of Ichigo's badge burning. Of course it does not mean I'm stupid, but maybe because I don't read the manga closely enough.

Sorry to ramble. In the end I just would like to say I love Bleachness. You are very generous because eventhough this is your comm, you ask for feedback. So keep it up debbie-chan :-)

semicolon abuse hotlinehallowd on February 8th, 2010 01:31 pm (UTC)
3. None of the mods want to disable anonymous comments. Most of the anonymous posters here have been wonderful, and I’ve made some wonderful personal contacts from people who did not have LJ accounts and who first contacted me via anon post on bleachness.

A solution I've seen work at other communities that allow anon posting is to encourage the anons to sign their comments with some name/pseudonym/identifying squiggle at the bottom. That way people who don't have LJ accounts and can't/don't want to use OpenID can still be consistently recognised by the community. It's a thought, I suppose.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 10th, 2010 02:44 am (UTC)

That's very helpful, thanks. I may make some sort of announcement about that and/or put that in the guidelines. I'd noticed a couple anons signing their names before and a couple post here often enough that I know them by their IPs but asking people for a little tag name if they don't have LJ accounts wouldn't hurt.
RyokoザTyrant: Bleach - Szayel Aporro Heartryokoful on February 8th, 2010 07:36 pm (UTC)
I mentioned it in a comment a long time ago, but this community gives me peace and hope. If there has been a stressful, confusing, or sad chapter, I always know I can come here and read intelligent discussion on it. Additionally, thoughts I have had (such as recently, on the nature of Hollow and Arrancar) are frequently explored here as well. I enjoy reading everyone's opinions. There are plenty of fandom and Bleach communities and forums out there, but this is the one I enjoy reading the most. Because I am one of the over nine-thousand English majors floating around, I enjoy seeing in depth analysis of my favorite subject: Bleach. Bleachness is a haven for people like me. I feel comfortable here.

In short, don't ever change. It's a great thing you have going here.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 10th, 2010 02:49 am (UTC)

this community gives me peace and hope

Really? That's really nice. Thanks! I like to think there's some place for everyone and even if bleachness isn't some people's, a lot of fans are really happy here.

(Anonymous) on July 2nd, 2011 08:55 am (UTC)
very good
good start