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25 January 2010 @ 06:43 pm
A Quick Point of Interest  
Being an RPer, I re-read big chunks of the series at a time to make sure I still have a handle on my characters and to see how I can improve.  So as I re-read the entry into Soul Society, a certain page caught my eye...

Right here.

Look familiar?  You probably recognize everything down to the paneling from the infamous "hand reach" scene depicted in "The Ash" and "The Heart".  (That page is from ch. 85, Intruderz 2: Breakthrough the Roof Mix).

The more recent hand reach

Now I know, most of you are expecting me to assert UlquiHime here.  But while we can't entirely cut either of them out of her life- nearly everyone she's interacted with has had some sort of effect on her- what does this mean about Orihime?

I know the point of posting here is to TL;DR to your heart's content (xD), but this is just sort of a discussion touch-off- I'm interested in how everyone else interprets these two scenes.  Kubo is notorious for bringing back old concepts and planning far ahead- Shinji showed up in the first chapter, and many titles are given "sequels" or "reduxes", sometimes hundreds of chapters apart.  Examples would be the "United Front" series of Renji and Ichigo, Uryuu and Renji, then Kenpachi and Byakuya, or the more recent "Eagles Without Wings" follow-ups.  With "Intruderz 2" and "The Ash", the paneling is almost exactly the same- two hand-shots, and a full-out of the two characters just inches from reaching one another, complete with others watching, but being unable to do anything.

So, my question to you is: what does the change in who she's reaching for mean about how Orihime's changed?  Note also the onlookers: Uryuu and Ganjyuu at first, then Ichigo himself.  Your thoughts?
Grenatescarboucle on January 25th, 2010 11:55 pm (UTC)
My thought: context.

While you can argue if you want that in the first one, Kubo had that idea of Ichigo and Inoue being not able to reach other at a time of need, fact is that it's still an action scene.

The latter is an emotional scene. The feelings conveyed in both scenes are indeed different.

If anything, Kubo loves to toy with different ideas, and he can play along or laugh at tropes altogether. I've seen him show that some tropes are laughable and didn't work and I saw him work out some tropes beautifully. It all depends on the context and the emotions he wants to convey.

As a LULZY addendum, Kubo has been working with the Musical for each scene for bankai code: 003. And he added a scene with Ichigo and Rukia looking longigly into each other's eyes and having a hand reaching in one of the most cheesier duets ever.

So yes, I definitely think that he loves playing with that theme. What he wrote years back, though, may not have the same idea that what he was writing this year. Especially since I'm pretty sure that the hand reaching and Ulq getting a heart, IMHO, was an idea born way after that.
>Kat<: Safetanya_lilac on January 26th, 2010 08:41 am (UTC)
Actually, I think he re-added that scene in. The first time Tatsuya and Miki peformed it (I think it was... in The Dark Of the Bleeding Moon), they did the hand reaching thing, but the next time (which was Code 001 or 002. You can tell my memory is really, really amazing. ^^;;), the hand reaching was cut, like I was. *is shot*
Shinigami_Lucia: IchiRuki04shinigami_lucia on January 26th, 2010 03:23 pm (UTC)
I think it was cut in code 002. That's why it's even more special when they played it again this year for code 003 <333 ..And yeah, since Kubo is personally assisting in this year's musical, he probably approved of it being added ♥
>Kat<: I feel prettytanya_lilac on January 27th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC)
Ahh, thanks for that lol. I'm so tempted to read some of the spoilers for the show, but I'm holding out until I can watch it myself. Hopefully.
erisalia on January 27th, 2010 05:45 pm (UTC)
I have to agree with syn on this one. In the first hand reach it was a reach made more out of necessity in order for them to keep from being separated in a world theyve never been to before. The 2nd hand reach was a reach of emotion and not necessity. There is a diffence in the context of each reach.
(Deleted comment)
n a o k o || want your rad bromancenendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 12:04 am (UTC)
...Oddly enough, I was just thinking about Shakespeare/Bleach in the same tongue-in-cheek way. xD
(Deleted comment)
Kylara: pretty Uryuukarenai on January 26th, 2010 12:14 am (UTC)
That this makes two times that Orihime reaches for a boy and can't grasp his hand.

Third time the charm? <●><●>

Okay, no, in all seriousness, some people were complaining once that it was unfair to look at the Ulquihime handreach as romantic and not the one from the beginning of SS arc that you just cited. My point is essentially the same as Syn's: CONTEXT. Of course Ichigo and Orihime had to reach for each other, they were all trying to prevent the group from being separated. However, there was no similarly logical reason for Orihime and Ulquiorra to reach out to each other. Therein lies the considerable difference.
n a o k o || want your rad bromancenendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 12:36 am (UTC)
Which is what I'm getting at- I just want to know if I'm not crazy/shipping-biased for thinking so, and if not, what does this mean for Orihime.
windrider1: Ichigo & Konwindrider1 on January 26th, 2010 12:17 am (UTC)
I may be alone in this opinion, but the Orihime in the first hand-reach appears to be reaching 'to be saved' while the Orihime reaching for Ulquiorra is doing the saving...or attempting to.

The fact that there's a 'group' of them in the first scene--the onlookers being as involved in the scene as the ones reaching--leave me feeling that it wasn't meant to be an 'intimate' scene, or reveal; whereas the Ulquiorra scene feels very intimate, even with the presence of Ichigo.

Ichigo and Orihime never make contact--they never connect.

She reached Ulquiorra only to have him slip through her fingers.

What that means for her in the future? I'm not entirely sure. What it means for her character? I'm hoping she doesn't look back and decide she needs to be saved again.

n a o k o || want your rad bromancenendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 12:36 am (UTC)
Ooh, I really like that "saving" idea!
Shinigami_Lucia: Rukia&Konshinigami_lucia on January 26th, 2010 12:21 am (UTC)
I feel that both convey the theme of separation & connection. The first scene is done out of necessity. Ichigo & Orihime are reaching out so the group will not be separated into different areas, to basically keep everyone together. Ulquiorra & Orihime reaches out to each other in order to hold on to that other person, in order not to severe that bond of connection they share. The act of Orihime reaching hand out to Ulquiorra is a symbol of her connection to him. This whole thing actually reminds me of the extra side story about Mizuro & phones being like a connection between people.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on January 26th, 2010 01:48 am (UTC)

I feel that both convey the theme of separation & connection.

That's the Tanabata theme I see all over Bleach. Orihime with her name is just one aspect of it, but yes, Mizuro and the phone connections chapter and Kubo's phone spread ... errrrrr, I wrote an essay about this... so tired... can't remember haha. There's so much longing and not quite connecting in Bleach.

I do feel like Kubo is teasing readers into expecting a major handslock scene somewhere in the manga to symbolize a connection being reached. I want Ishida to reach out to Orihime with the new hand she's restored to him and just go GRABBY GRABBY GOTCHA and thank her for healing him and then she gets all verklempt because she really needs to thank him .......

I need to go to bed, lol. I'm already dreaming.
kawaiisdreal1: Happykawaiisdreal1 on January 26th, 2010 02:15 am (UTC)
Better yet, Hime-chan grabs hold of both Ishi and Ulqui and they all play a 3 way pat-a-cake game. :3

Yeah, I need to sleep too. :/

The comments here make me happy. ^o^/
n a o k o || want your rad bromancenendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 02:50 am (UTC)
I approve of this venture very much. :B
(Anonymous) on January 26th, 2010 10:06 am (UTC)
But a spread is a spread. The Phone spread, the Picnic spread, the Halloween spread and many others... isn't it just fan service? Or if anything, doesn't a spread following a certain theme of some sort? It doesn't necessary have to connect with the story in context. The Phone Spread could just be about frienshiop .The Beach Spread could simply be about guys hanging out on the beach. They don't have to match with the manga in general. Look at the spread of when Ulquiorra dead. B00bs! What the What? See? Kubo is merely toying with us. Taking his spreads seriously would be migraine inducting, and besides, he's free to do what he wishes in spreads, whether they be AU themed or Halloween themed. Let the dude enjoy experimenting with his art in peace. They don't have to make sense it context, not all of them, or at least not the ones convenient to your ship. Besides, it's fun.

As for Ishida reaching out to Hime... he tried when Ichithing tossed her away and actually grabbed her, correct? Does that mean that he is her one true love for connecting and grabbing? Does this mean that Hime is a dumb broad that deserves to die alone for ignoring Ishida's undying lub for her and that she should be thanking him for actually loving her 9001x times? Because it's only then that Ishida deserves Orihime? When he's bleeding to death but still manages to save her sorry ass?

Bull. That would make Ishihime the rebound ship between all Hime ships. And quite frankly, it wouldn't be fair for Ishida, no matter how much he actually loves the girl, even if its just to get some. (Which is not the real reason. Ishida is a friggin' gentleman. I hope.) Personally, I doubt that Hime will even try to reach out to anyone this time, even if third time is the charm (or not, it's Kubo after all.). And tell me, why is it that Hime has to reach out and depend on someone in order to receive even a little character growth, whether from Ichigo, Ulquiorra or Ishida? Isn't that a little too convenient, especially in terms of shipping? What, is Orihime's heart such a slimy, slippery thing that needs to be caught just on time to be yours? Day-wm. The girl is totally unreliable in all aspects of herself. No wonder the Japanese fandom really despises her.
(Anonymous) on January 26th, 2010 10:06 am (UTC)
I'm sorry if I sound too crude for this comm., but if Hime is really going to grow as a character (and about time too, this is her friggin' arc, not the Espadas) she needs to stand on her own two feet and to stop thing about herself for once, and no, not by always reaching out to someone expecting someone to grab her hand and do the job for her, but to stop being selfish and to do something for her friends without expecting personal gain from their actions. I'm not asking her to be a martyr, but you can't keep on thinking for yourself in every action that your friends do, especially if you have close friends and is (supposedly?) in love with one of your said close friends. Being in love does make you blind, but it doesn't make you a passive little b*tch either. If she did defend her friend at all costs despite the odds way before all of these hand reaches, even before she gained her powers, does that make TatOri canon, making all of these HR scenes mere ship teases? Nope, unless Tatsuki has been hiding something for Hime a la Chizuru/Soi Fong and Fanfiction was proven right of course. Coincidentally, Kubo is also a yuri fanboi, but then he would have to break many hearts since he personally ships RukiOri, with all of those questionable chapter covers and RO spreads he loves drawing. But again spreads = Kubo's fun. It's his buzz. And it's ours as well. And its good buzz. And waaay cheaper.

The only reason this manga-only reader enjoyed the UO hand reach is because for once, Hime didn't just stand there waiting for the dude to grab her, she actually did something and tried to reach out to him more than once. And that she was trying to save someone else and didn't stop at first try, not for herself to feel better about herself (because you know, saving and thanks is all for the self esteem, nothing more) but because she wanted to do something. Perhaps we will discover what that Heart did to Ulquiorra, heck maybe even through his POV again. After all, what IS a heart GODDAMMIT KUBO.

I'm sorry for disturbing you folks. And if you actually mistake me for a troll just because I don't share your opinion, then I was wrong in thinking that this site was good for intelligent debating, since there are too many ship dipped opinions. No matter how much you might hate me for saying all of the above, nothing will be cooler than this silly little idea in my head that Ishida is Ulquiorra from the future. And even that wouldn't make Ishihime instant canon either. It should take time from either side. If, of course, Ulquiorra doesn't skip said future trip and simply returns from the dead in The Crow fashion. Now that would be an awesome return/reunion.

That's all I have to say. -tips Tophat- Good day to you all ladies and gentlemen.
Ava: Avavisforvanilla on January 26th, 2010 10:44 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry if I sound too crude for this comm., but if Hime is really going to grow as a character (and about time too, this is her friggin' arc, not the Espadas)

You seriously believe that? Dude, Orihime is a main character, but the Bleach universe does not revolve around her. It's shonen, and believe me, must shonen fans do not stick around to read about a girl as she slowly looses her mind and what made her interesting. (Because screaming a name repeatedly is so appealing...)

This arc is about the nakamas and the espadas. They are both important and essential to the plot. Bleach is about the journey of a young boy who has something to prove to himself and wants to protect his friends.

Also, not sharing an opinion does not make you a troll. Insulting something that some hold dear and NOT SHOWING YOUR FACE makes you a troll. This least you can do is log in and be prepared to have a discussion.
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Deidara- ...nendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 10:56 pm (UTC)
No, it doesn't revolve around her, but she, like Rukia in Soul Society, is very pivotal. Now, my definition of "trolling" involves insulting another person without any provocation. Would you care to explain in nice words to everyone why exactly you're so offended by this dire insult to whatever it is you "hold dear"?
Ava: Kubovisforvanilla on January 27th, 2010 12:49 am (UTC)
The post is basically ship bait, and I don't think that it was necessary considering that the main topic is not about that.

Sorry if my post came as too threatening, didn't mean it that way. It's just that I dislike when people say that the HM arc is "Orihime's Arc" or that SS was "Rukia's Arc" (I can't say that, not even as a shiper.)
(Anonymous) on January 26th, 2010 10:13 am (UTC)
Hmm. Well, Ishida didn't exactly manage to grab Orihime, but he still tried to complete with a hand reach. So would that make the UO hand reach the 'third time a charm' scene? Of course not, but just saying.
_debbiechan_: smile_debbiechan_ on January 26th, 2010 02:11 pm (UTC)

I take it that you don't like the IshiHime ship.

Uh, not up for making a case for IshiHime or answering all the speedball declarations in your comment. I'm going to have to have some coffee and ignore the shipbait.
(Deleted comment)
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Ilforte- Cool story bro.nendo_chan on January 26th, 2010 10:59 pm (UTC)
Uhm... I'm sorry to say that I completely fail to see what point you're making besides Orihime-bashing. Judging from my ventures into Japanese fandom, she seems to be quite well-liked. While there will always be those who dislike certain pairings, characters, what have you, speaking for a foreign fandom, any fandom is going overboard. You are not "Japanese Bleach Fandom-tan", able to provide a concrete opinion for every single reader, so let's tone it down a notch.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on January 27th, 2010 02:31 am (UTC)

I believe anon was attempting (and failing) to be sarcastic. I read the posts after coffee and decided it was best not even begin to answer what I thought I could understand.
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Orihime- Derp!nendo_chan on January 27th, 2010 02:33 am (UTC)
I read it before any energy-inducing substances, hence the crabby. xD
sumoniysumoniy on January 30th, 2010 12:21 am (UTC)
I don't see this as trolling. Just a diff opinion, but ya gotta remember it's the internet. So what sounds like a witty opinion to you, may sound like brash ranting to others. ;)

Anyhoo, I see no prob with Ishida/Orihime being rebound. So what? It's like, "I used to love this guy, but than I realized I knew nothing about him. Then I realized this guy who's always loved me could treat me better." I'd like to think of it as Orihime "waking up" from her from her "Prince charming idol" fantasies. Shoot, I'm sure Ishida wouldn't mind being the rebound as long as Orihime is completley devoted to him. Ya dig?
n a o k o || want your rad bromance: Orihime- Going to Winnendo_chan on January 30th, 2010 12:44 am (UTC)
I definitely get what you're saying- hell, Kenpachi could be her rebound, and I'd be happy simply because it would mean she's gotten over her "knight in shining armour" phase, like you said. Before anyone asks, no, I don't ship KenHime. xD