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13 December 2009 @ 07:54 pm
Avez-vous une intime conviction ?  
This French sentence is highly connoted; it's used in law courts, asking the jurors their conviction about the innocence or culpability of a man. It's meant to ask what is your own opinion, that you have deep inside of you, about this story. This is also something I have in my signature in BA, for more than a year now.



A little presentation; I'm someone who actually write and maybe wish to share the story that a friend and I are creating. When I look at Bleach, I have my own feelings, but I also look at it in a very dissected way. My friends know that I fangirl a lot, but that I also look at events in the manga in a very cold way. The truth is something I never look away from, even if I sometimes fear the outcomes. And there are some points, that I've seen discussed lately, that hold absolutely no doubt from me. Because I look at what's being told to me, and I use logic.

So, these opinions may be my opinions, but I also happen to think that they have their roots in the manga. Also, thanks to deb to allow me to post this as it is in Bleachness :3

1. Inoue Orihime is a princess
The name "Orihime" comes from the Tanabata fairytale, that is proven by an old spread that has 7/7 written at her feet. Does this mean that she's a long lost princess?

Nope. Actually, we have a lot of things that are certain about Inoue:
- her mother was a whore, her father was a demon, and her brother took her away when she was a kid
- her brother died, giving her her greatest treasure: her hairpins
- her relatives support her financially
- her powers are her own, that were awaken because of Ichigo's leaking reiatsu, just like Chad's, Tatsuki's, Keigo's, Mizuiro's
- her powers are "rejection of reality", and are similar to Hacchi's
- her powers DO interfer with God's powers

Now, does this make Inoue a goddess, the King's long lost daughter? No. Because the last sentence is true, it actually means jack concerning her relation to the King, which is zip, none, nothing.

Her powers are rejection of reality, which is why they fit her so much. Orihime is not for "like the princess in the fairytale" but rather "the girl who LIVES in the fairytale". It's been my beef for years that she couldn't stand reality and that was why her powers rejected it, allowing her to continue to live in a bubbly world. This has been especially shaped when she saved the lolis from GJ - her expression was absolutely not a compassionate one, she was acting like a true ROBOT. It was for her own good, to allow her to continue the fairytale that she healed them. Yet, this trait seemed to disappear afterwards when it came to Nnoi, Tesla, GJ? She's not a goddess, not a compassionate one either. Apparently, anyone hurting Ichigo doesn't deserve to be healed. She only truly reacted to Ulq, the only one to shatter her bubble to make her face the reality that she despises.

Kubo's not been very subtle with his irony when it comes to Inoue; even though she has those great powers, she hasn't lift a finger, she hasn't really tried her hardest. She asks herself twice about why she keeps on relying on Ichigo - the reply is quite clear: because she is the "Hime", he is "the prince" who saves her. Except, it doesn't go her way.

Her powers are inherent to how Inoue views and wishes to control the world, and they do step on God's land because they allow things that shouldn't be done - like, say, making the dead coming back to life? That, in Bleach, is considered as taboo; many people may think it's cool, but the truth is that the heroes in Bleach have their beliefs about life and death, that death is NOT the end and that reversing death should not be allowed because it goes against the balance of life and death. See, oh well, CHAPTER 01. Her powers are taboo just like Ishida's, because Ishida destroys souls, he also goes against the balance of life and death - albeit, in another manner.

This absolutely doesn't mean that she's related to the King in any shape or way. The two assertions are completely different, and if she was related to the King, her powers wouldn't go AGAINST God, they would work ALONG with how the Bleachverse works. The people you're looking for are probably Ichigo, Rukia. And even that is a bit stretching, but at least you have a solid basis with a blurry background that you can use for hypothesis. If anything, despite her name, Inoue's the furthest thing from a princess when you look at how she acts. A true princess would actually act more like Yoruichi or Rukia, if you want to take two extremes. Princesses are not bubbly things, not in my world, not in Bleach world either.

2. IchiThing is Ichigo's Resurreccion.

Are you nuts? Seriously?
Resurreccion is an ability, possessed by apparently both Arrancars and Vizards, that is comparable to bankai for shinigami. They call out their powers from their zanpakutou - just look at, oh, all the Arrancars AND say, TOUSEN?

Hollows are born from the humans' desires, that are twisted and shape them anew. No, this does not mean that Ichigo wanted to oh secretely protect Inoue the most, it just means that yes, this is Ichigo who wants to protect EVERYONE and whose wish has been twisted. Inoue calling out for help only mattered because she was the only one who'd do that; but in the end, it's because of Ichigo's nature that he turned like this.

Ichigo did NOT control IchiThing, he doesn't remember him at all; IchiThing is his TRUE hollow form, the one that we witnessed back then when he was training with the Vizards and that they had to restrain. The form we saw while he was fighting Byakuya is probably his Vizard/Arrancar form, the one that stands in between the shinigami and hollow form. Ichigo did NOT want to turn into IchiThing, while Tousen IS calling for his hollow powers. IchiThing still uses Zangetsu in bankai form because he is NOT Ichigo's resurreccion form. If you're looking for a way to say that Ichigo controled anything, that it's totally IchiOri, that it's okay... You're wrong. That's not what Kubo has been showing hence the Eyes of the Victor chapter, where Rukia notices right away that something went wrong up there.

3. Tousen's zanpakutou

It's his friend's. And I thought it was obvious, because it made such a HUGE ruckus when this chapter was out. Seriously, people were excited, wondering about how exactly the zanpakutou worked because of that. Now, thanks to the filler, we know that zanpakutou are imbued with the shinigami's reiatsu and that's how one is born - hence why Tousen taking his friend's zanpakutou is NOT the same as him taking the whole thing with its powers, but rather him using the shell that is this zanpakutou to imbue it with his own powers.

Also, yeah. Tousen LOVED her. As in, romantically. Just buy eyes please. I'm saying this because apparently, since it's unspoken, many don't think so while I thought it was obvious from the get go. There's not only justice that is blind: love is, too. Kubo's irony: 2.

4. Hisagi/Rangiku

It's a joke guys. It's only been drawn in omake, only from Hisagi to Ran and Ran never noticed him. I mean, come on. I think, if there's something that support the rumour that Kubo hates BL, it's that one: he made Hisagi, who was immediately taken by the yaoi fans, love Ran, a very feminine woman. That, and all good looking guys have a girl they love in Bleach. True FAX. Also, Iba also loves her. Should I think that IbaRan stands a chance? After all, if Hisagi does, why not Iba? That's just shallow to think one has a chance just because he's good looking. Kubo's irony: 3

5. Inoue's love is here because she's the love interest

And certainly not to make her grow, I suppose? Inoue has tons of problems, with Ichigo she's the one who needs to grow the most - Ichigo needs to trust his friends.

Admitedly, I don't like Inoue, but I can say safely that what I wish for her is more than to be a healing bot that goes on "Kurosaki-kun" and has the brain of a pea-size.

Inoue's love has always been one-sided, since we discovered her character in ch02 up until now. Ichigo only cares about her physical well-being, not her mental well-being [those who look at this points are Ishida and Ulquiorra, period]. Inoue's love may have deepened, but it also brought her in a downwards spiral and that's not how Kubo depicts a positive relationship. And it's not because OMG she's supposed to go through this with Ichigo, because it does look that he just well... left her, forgetting his promise to bring back her and everyone safe home [that is another problem, inherent to Ichigo].

One-sided love have been OVERUSED in all media to show the growth of a character. It's not anything new so I don't know why Inoue, who can't reach Ichigo, who is literally worthless beside him and who becomes self-centered and jealous when it comes to him should be an exception. That's the growth she's supposed to have.

Beside that, there are a lot of one-sided loves in Bleach. Why would she, out of all the positive relationships that are described, be the one who has her feelings returned when the other aren't? If so, why hasn't Kubo promoted this ship, like he perfectly knows how to with other pairings?

6. Kubo said no romance in Bleach

ORZ. That's not what I read there:

For a shonen series, Bleach spends a lot focusing on the emotions and different bonds between the characters. I’m sure you’re asked this a lot, but will we ever see any romance by the end of the series?
I don’t really intend to make it a romantic story, but it’s one of the aspects of the series, so I put it in here and there.

[here]

He did say there was more in his character than love when asked about the love triangle between Inoue, Ichigo and Rukia, yet he replied that to someone else who was much more general, and even replied that Rukia was like a ray of light to Ichigo completely randomly when asked about the meaning of her name. I wonder who the "no romance in Bleach" truly hurts. I'm certain it's not IchiRuki though.

7. Kubo is a big troll

Wrong. Up until now, he's never trolled me. I always expected the turns of events - Espadas dying, the IchiOri death knell during the Lust chapters [pretty much confirmed by the doodles], etc, etc. While I did want to see Unohana fighting, I also knew there was no way she'd fight Yammy - which meant, I'd have to wait again before seeing this with my own eyes.

When you say Kubo is a troll, that's just because he's not fulfilling your expectations. But he is fulfilling his story's expectations, because he's the one who makes Bleach. And anyone able to look further than just the cool poses knows what is happening in Bleach.

8. Ichigo is asexual and there will be an open ending

To all the people saying that Ichigo is asexual: no, just no. If he were asexual, he wouldn't be embarrassed by Yoruichi's nudity, he wouldn't try peeking over Matsu's boobs, he wouldn't be bothered that Rukia sits on his bed - when it never bothered him before. If you think he's asexual because of how he acts with Inoue, maybe that has to do with Inoue herself and how he views her - I keep saying this, but he does treat her like a little sister, IMHO.

Kubo has been massively supporting one ship, and that is IchiRuki. And when I say massively, I'm talking about covers, spreads, heavily romance shaded arc, song, sketchs, omakes, poems, movie, interviews, Rukia's name's meaning retcon, musical even! Which ship has even the quarter of what makes an IchiRuki fan proud? No other. And he gave a lot of romance for the ships - GinRan's parting, UlqOri's parting, IshiOri interactions during the SS arc, ShinHiyory lately, ByaHisa, NnoiNel even! [and so on.. listing all the romance in Bleach may be neverending].

Now let's look at what people see as a problem:
- Age gap: hahahahahahaha. Sorry, is Rukia acting like Ichigo's grandmother? Because it doesn't look so, and if Ichigo looked at his grandmother like he looks at Rukia.... ew, just ewww...
- Sibling relationship: nope, Kubo himself tagged it as more than friends, less than lovers. Try again. There's no mention of siblings there. And in the same idea, if they had a sibling relationship, that's assuming they'd look to each other the way they look to their other siblings. Which is simply not true - and they have a big sister/brother complex, yet they manage to treat each other differently than their other siblings.
- Different worlds: Isshin and Masaki weren't? So if they weren't, that means that Ichigo belongs to SS, which actually matches with my theory that he'll end up living in SS anyway. Perfect. XD
- Open ending: that's an insult to how Kubo works with his characters. When his characters demand resolution, he may take his time, but he does give it to them. The IchiRuki relationship demands resolution, and he will give it to them - but before that, their bond will deepen yet again.
- Soulmates in a non romantic way: just what is soulmates to you? Soulmates implies in a romantic sense because that's taking a place in your heart and soul that cannot be taken by anyone else.

Manga, books, movies, animes... those are mediums where the impossible becomes possible and the more impossible a relationship is, the more it stirs interest from the fans [Mulder/Scully from X-Files, Jack/Sam from SG1, Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike, but also Inuyasha/Kagome, and all the pairings that have two characters literally coming from different worlds/time - oh look Doctor, how much you stir wank with your compagnons!]. It never prevents their love [albeit Jack/Sam is truly impossible, it still was as canon as you can get, the SG1 fans will definitely understand what I mean], the canon of the pairing and them ending together. Especially in manga, because Japaneses love those things *stopped counting the number of shoujo with those themes*

A great thanks to S.A. who actually helped me finding stuff to talk about and whose discussion allowed to pinpoint a lot of points :3
 
 
 
nehalenia: chad interp dancenehalenia on December 13th, 2009 07:23 pm (UTC)
Also, yeah. Tousen LOVED her. As in, romantically. Just buy eyes please. I'm saying this because apparently, since it's unspoken, many don't think so while I thought it was obvious from the get go. There's not only justice that is blind: love is, too. Kubo's irony: 2.

That's one thing I found most interesting in this last chapter. Tousen loved his 'friend' in a way that was well beyond mere 'friendship', yet it was never reciprocated. The path that Tousen has followed since her death really makes me wonder if Kubo isn't giving us another example of how damaging it can be -- both for the person and everyone around them -- when someone nurtures a one-sided and idealistic love.

Very interesting post.
_debbiechan_: meow_debbiechan_ on December 13th, 2009 07:46 pm (UTC)

ha, interesting observation since a few entries ago, we were noticing that maybe something seemed to be up with the similarities between Tousen's hybrid form and Ichigo's final release form. There were creepy resonances between the two--like when Tousen's mask opened to make that monstery mouth. And people were already arguing about whether or not Ichigo had a resurrection and whether or not Tousen's form to be (this new cricket thing we've yet to see) is a resurrection....

Kaname and Orihime and their dangerous obsessions? Well, that's a loaded comparison if I ever ran across one. Thank you much for the controversial observation, Neha. *bows*
(no subject) - escarboucle on December 13th, 2009 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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_debbiechan_: Kubo is my boyfriend 2_debbiechan_ on December 13th, 2009 07:53 pm (UTC)


Ah, classic bleachness. C'mon everyone, put the guidelines I made in my previous entry into practice.

I disagree with my friend Syn every so often (she's almost always proven right in the end before I am, though--the only time I can think of when I called a Bleach outcome against her was when I said Grimmjow wouldn't die and I may still have gotten that wrong).

The note about Kubo making Hisagi take an interest in Rangiku because Kubo didn't like Hisagi being assumed to be a gay character is something I've heard here and there. XD Fandom speculation only. I can't prove a thing, although I've got my own personal reasons to believe that Kubo-sensei dislikes BL as much as I love it. XD I know the HisagiRan is all in omake but it's still one-sided canon, and as much as I'm awaiting my tragic bittersweet GinRan moment, I still hold out the hope that Matsumoto might give Hisagi the time of day eventually. I like the pairing. <3

As for Kubo being the big troll--preach it sister. I'll disagree on fine points in the rest of this post but yeah, Kubo-sensei is a devious and frustraing, sometimes predictable and more often not, authentic ARTISTE and in no way a TROLL.
Grenatescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 08:15 pm (UTC)
I am certainly not right in all my predictions XD It would be boring if I were!

However, even when proven wrong, I've never felt truly "disappointed", or that it mismatched my idea of "Bleach". Kubo takes detours, but worthy ones. For example, yesterday Neo was telling me "but he did troll with Yammy being #1".

However, if you look at it, if Yammy had been only #10, then it'd mean that Rukia, Renji and Chad would definitely have had to kill him before the IchiUlq fight ended. It would have meant no "Eyes of the Victor" chapter, it would have meant that Kubo wouldn't have been able to show his troubles to keep up with his mask and Rukia knowing about the stripes changes. It would have meant that Ichigo would have stayed up there so that Inoue could refreshed his reiatsu fully, and that he wouldn't have been gone to the real world yet.

Kubo takes detours, but his detours are worthy of it. Beside that, I'm always for authors surprising me XD It doesn't mean that the general ideas and some details aren't already set in stone though. It's my belief that Kubo will want to top FtB, definitely. His pride as an author is at stake after all XD
(no subject) - karenai on December 13th, 2009 08:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 03:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
『ミカオル』 ☆: huuu~mikaoru on December 13th, 2009 08:17 pm (UTC)
I already told you how much I liked this post. And that I keep learning facts about Bleach everytime I read your posts (like Tousen's zampakutou) <3

About Hisagi/Ran, I find Hisagi very cute and dorky when it comes to him thinking about Ran (like in those doodles anticipating the fuku-taichou snowfight XD). However, I perfectly understand that love as one-sided :3

I agree with onesided love being very common amongst loads of manga (let's not go so far, see Kouga from Inuyasha).

I see Inoue's feelings for Ichigo 'similar' to Sakura's feelings for Yukito in Card Captor Sakura, more like adoration and big brother complex (we could also argue this is what Rukia felt for Kaien- a crush).

And I always make fun with my friends about Kubo being a troll for certains sides of fandom xD

Grenatescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 09:09 pm (UTC)
You're welcome, Mikaoru :3

Yes, one-sided love is very common in manga. Like, DUH. And in Bleach, I think I stopped counting the one sided loves we had XD Too many to keep the count up haha XD
Styx667styx_uchiha on December 13th, 2009 08:27 pm (UTC)
I agree with with pretty much everything, except this : - I mean, come on. I think, if there's something that support the rumour that Kubo hates BL, it's that one: he made Hisagi, who was immediately taken by the yaoi fans, love Ran, a very feminine woman. That, and all good looking guys have a girl they love in Bleach. True FAX.-
Then what about the inexistance of GinKira, the totally out of place angst of Kira, his useless drinking parties with Rangiku, and this meaningless page http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/320/02/ ? Also, you say every "good-looking" guy but then what about gorgeous Ukitake who has zero love interest, least of all a feminine one, (the only people we ever see him having special interest in being Kyoraku, Kaien, Yama-jii, Rukia, Toshiro, Lilynette and Ichigo, take that as you will) and the libido of a panda ?

Nevertheless, I like your analysis of Orihime ^^ Very interesting, particularly the point about why she healed Loli and Menoli, I had never really thought about why she did it.

-Ichigo is asexual and there will be an open ending-
LMAO I never knew there were people who actually believed that XD
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on December 13th, 2009 08:45 pm (UTC)

LOL, I love that GinKira page and fail to see how it can be interpreted as anything but fanservice to a hugely popular yaoiship.

There is tell of a printed interview in which Kubo said he didn't like BL (as casually as one says "I don't like cole slaw") and that he got into trouble for it with fans, but no one has ever been able to reproduce a copy of this interview. I personally believe that even if Kubo dislikes the genre, that doesn't mean he doesn't fanservice it.

-Ichigo is asexual and there will be an open ending-
LMAO I never knew there were people who actually believed that XD


A huge portion of fandom, to my reckoning, believes this. Maybe the idea is more common in Western fandom where romance is presumed not to have a real place in kid's entertainment, but that's changing too--Avatar had a shipping conclusion. Everywhere people are figuring out that girls read adventure geared-for-shounen fighting stories too and that it's not only girls who follow romance. The recent turns in Naruto may indicate that WSJ editors know who's buying the magazine and romance may play a bigger role in Bleach later...
(no subject) - virkallea on December 13th, 2009 08:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Kylara: growl hainekokarenai on December 13th, 2009 08:30 pm (UTC)
About number one, the Orihime-is-a-sekrit-princess-theory. I commented on this before, but Syn, I'd like to expand a bit, since it's the right place for it. <3

Now, here's an argument I've seen crop up lately: "Orihime" is the name of the princess from the Tanabata myth, this name is significant because like her namesake, Orihime is also the long-lost daughter of the vanished King from the Royal Realm.

If people say that Orihime being named after a princess is Kubo's way of saying that she literally is a princess, there are a couple problems. Why doesn't this apply to Sora? Is Sora representative of the sky? (Tuxedo Sky, if you will?) Or is Sora just not her brother, and he was completely lying when he talked for pages when he talked about how lovely his sister was, and how much he needed to take her away from their abusive parents?

This Orihime-is-a-princess-because-she's-like-the-princess-from-the-myth tends to stop right there and ignore one of the most important parts of the story. Kubo could have named her after a dozen different princesses from different myths, but he chose Tanabata's princess. What sets Orihime apart?

When I was a child and first got my hands on this myth, I still remember what I thought: "These people are stupid and they deserved it." It is as much a fairytale as it is a cautionary story about the foolishness of excessive love.

What's tragic is that Orihime and Kengyuu are separated for all eternity and can only meet once a year, barring rain. What's not tragic is the fact that they were so stupidly in love with each other that she neglected her weaving and he neglected his cows, and her loom became dusty and cobwebby and his cows wandered off and got lost. Because they were more focused on each other than their work, they essentially forced the situation that they are now stuck with.

Is Orihime named after this princess? Most definitely. However, the strongest meaning that I can extrapolate is that she truly is like her namesake - girls who for the sake of love forsake their duties and their promises.

Also, seriously? All these theories have in common one particular thing, which is that Orihime must be in hiding for some reason. Why, yes, if I want to hide a princess, I am going to name her after a princess and hide her in the most spiritually significant area in 1000 years.

Edited at 2009-12-13 08:34 pm (UTC)
Grenatescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 09:26 pm (UTC)
:3

Yes, I also thought it was a stupid fairytale XD I read many other "fairytales" from Japan, and many times they're very funny, with people acting stupidly and trying to amend after haha XD

But you're right, Inoue IS throwing everything away for her "love" and I think that it's been hitting her back with full force - this kind of behaviour is not "acceptable" in Bleach, thus it will be corrected and Inoue will grow, learn a lot about herself, love, Ichigo, friendship.

Having Inoue as a princess also demeans a lot her story with Sora, Sora's existence, her hairpin's symbolism. I don't think Kubo wants to throw that away - this is part of who Inoue *is*, exists as a character.
 syxdarksyx on December 13th, 2009 08:35 pm (UTC)
Well put, and a very interesting reading.

Actually what Kubo makes with Ichiruki reminds me of another great shônen, R. Kenshin in pages and panels like this.

That's single out feelings and characters and I don't think a good reader should overlook them. What's with that allergy to romance in shônen? As far as I know romance is almost in any action shônen in one way or another.

『ミカオル』 ☆mikaoru on December 13th, 2009 09:07 pm (UTC)
oh YES Kenshin/Kaoru, my OTP of OTP's before the meeting with Ichiruki <3
(no subject) - darksyx on December 13th, 2009 09:50 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Iselin: Rukia Pleasediselinka on December 13th, 2009 08:51 pm (UTC)
Her powers are rejection of reality, which is why they fit her so much. Orihime is not for "like the princess in the fairytale" but rather "the girl who LIVES in the fairytale". It's been my beef for years that she couldn't stand reality and that was why her powers rejected it, allowing her to continue to live in a bubbly world.

I've never thought about it that way but it makes so much sense! O_o
Thank you for sharing that,it made my evening a lot better ^^

It was also my opinion that Tousen was in love with that "friend" of his. Especially since he mentioned how her voice affected him and how she said his name again and again. When I got to the "she married someone else" part I thought - "...huh? And he was ok with it...? "
Poor guy. I never liked him much but it's sad.
Love is blind,lol that's a nice one xD

Thank God I'm not a Hisagi/Rangiku supporter - it was officially killed xD

And last thing - the trolling. I SO agree.
Although this video about him and Kishi is hilarious ^^


What a great read,thank you very much :D
Grenatescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 09:40 pm (UTC)
You're welcome :3

I thought that Tousen being in love with his friend was rather obvious, TBH ^^" I was surprised when last week people wondered why he'd go so far for a mere friend.. I was like, are you blind? XD

No offence to anyone supporting it, but I don't know how HisaRan stands a tiny bit of chance. The two men in Ran's life are Gin and Hitsu. And that's about it.

The trolling thing started as hilarious, but it's really getting stupid lately. Just because Kubo doesn't do things the way some people wish it doesn't mean he's trolling _o/
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 03:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Danielwdboldstar on December 13th, 2009 09:08 pm (UTC)
I just wanted to give a big hell yes to point 7. It so grates on my nerves when people accuse Kubo of trolling. He's not. It's ultimately his story, and he's telling it his way. It may not go the way you expect or want it to go, but that's not his problem, and his way is not innately inferior to your way. In fact, it's probably the other way around.
Grenatescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 09:45 pm (UTC)
Seriously, I think that people are getting a bit too haughty, when they say Kubo's a troll; because they're crying over their beloved Espada [who were meant to die since day 1], because some pairings don't get Kubo's attention like they wished it, because some characters got owned, because Ichigo has too many powers up.... ETC ETC. The list can go on and on, but the truth is, Kubo is following his own storyline.

There are things that I complain about Bleach - namely, too many long fights, Kubo's pacing - but if there's one thing that I can't complain about, it's that Bleach is matching my expectations of being "Bleach". If the fanboys or fangirls had their ways, Bleach would have been distorted and the characters would be vastly OOC. So I thank Kubo to keep all of that and continue to make Bleach "Bleach".
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on December 13th, 2009 10:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - escarboucle on December 13th, 2009 10:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Cairnsy: surprisecairnsy on December 13th, 2009 09:27 pm (UTC)
There are a couple of things I disagree with, but this is probably the major one:

I mean, come on. I think, if there's something that support the rumour that Kubo hates BL, it's that one: he made Hisagi, who was immediately taken by the yaoi fans,

I'm not entirely sure why you believe Hisagi was taken by 'yaoi' fangirls more so than any other character. Given the amount of doujinshi and Japanese fan art, I'd say someone like Ishida/Hitsugaya/Kira were more likely candidates for such a claim. From what I've seen, both gen and yaoi fangirls love Shuuhei equally. Additionally, you would think if the omake were done because Kubo hated the BL fangirls, he wouldn't then go and tie Shuuhei so closely to two key male characters (Kensei, Tousen)

Personally? I don't see the omake as canon and therefore don't see one-sided Shuuhei/Ran as canon. However, I have no problem with those who consider the omakes canon and think Shuuhei does have a crush on her - I think both options are equally legitimate interpretations of canon.
Grenat: virgoescarboucle on December 13th, 2009 09:56 pm (UTC)
Because Kubo himself reckoned that Hisagi had ZERO personality and background when he launched him. He was FIRST taken by the fans, and only AFTER he gave him a personality and a background - he even said he was surprised that fans loved him so much. This is why I take him as a standard for Kubo's own ideas.

Also, I think that a story is a story, you can't have males interacting with only females and being tied to only females just because you don't like BL. Stories need to be developped, characters demand relationships, with both men and women. Not all are romantic-shaded though; what fans do with their interactions are from their own tastes, but there's difference between how the author ties two characters and how some fans - notice the some, not all because you can't have ALL fans thinking the same thing about something - will interpret it.

So to say "Kubo wouldn't tie Hisagi to Tousen and Kensei if he disliked BL" is a pretty moot point, in my opinion, because that's like saying that Hisagi doesn't need to have a background and characterisation or it'll be confirmed as HOMG, BL LURRRRRVEEEEEEE!!!

I don't know if Kubo dislikes BL or not; I just think that if there's a nod towards this assertion, it's the fact that he made Hisagi love a very feminine woman.

I think that omake are part of the canon - like an expanded universe. They colour Bleach with Kubo's vision of "Bleach". Sure we see the shinigami being fools, but it's part of their everyday lives. That's how I see it. Beside, Hisagi's love was also mentioned in the doodles in I can't remember which volume.
(no subject) - cairnsy on December 13th, 2009 10:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - aizome on December 14th, 2009 01:50 am (UTC) (Expand)
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oh gallant piglet,: WONDERHATaizome on December 14th, 2009 01:54 am (UTC)
2. "Ichigo did NOT want to turn into IchiThing, while Tousen IS calling for his hollow powers. IchiThing still uses Zangetsu in bankai form because he is NOT Ichigo's resurreccion form."

*round of applause* The fact that you have to point this out is kind of sad. I thought it was made painfully obvious, but some choose to ignore it, I suppose.

7. I call Kubo a troll as much as any capslocker, but I'm not serious. I doubt many who call him one really are serious. IMO, when he causes a huge reaction by giving us something really dramatic and (to many) not predicted, people call that "trolling". Like pretty much everything involving Yammi since he reappeared after such a long absence. IMO it's a quick way of saying, "Damn, I didn't see THAT coming! LOL Troll!" Not meant to be taken seriously. The truth is, Kubo's a great storyteller, and proof is how people react to all the "unexpected" things. Also for some people, calling him a troll gives them an excuse to bash him when he writes something they don't like, instead of admitting he's a good storyteller.

8. I've said Ichigo "seems asexual" to me, but this is based on his reactions compared to those of a typical teenage boy. I'm not saying he IS asexual, just that he seems that way to me right now. IMO he needs to do A LOT of growing up on the inside before I can get a grip on his sexuality. He's prudish enough that he is horrified by what Kon might do in his body, because he absolutely would not do the same things. I think a lot hinges on his dealing with, and later accepting his hollow side. Once he's able to do that, he'll have a better chance at being comfortable with such things as Yoruichi's vagina, or Matsumoto's cleavage, instead of acting threatened by them.

As for an open ending, I'm actually indifferent to whether or not Ichigo "ends up with someone" and I admit bias in hopes that my favorite characters DO get an open-ending. I'm confident that will happen with Chad (if he lives) at least. Ishida... I'm not blind or stupid enough to deny he's got feelings for Inoue, but as a selfish faggot I hope his ending is open so that all Ishida shippers can have their fun once the series is over, instead of being beaten over the head by canon elitism.

(spelling edit, sorry)

Edited at 2009-12-14 02:02 am (UTC)
Kylarakarenai on December 14th, 2009 02:39 am (UTC)
//I hope his ending is open so that all Ishida shippers can have their fun once the series is over, instead of being beaten over the head by canon elitism.//

Canon elitism? I think the author can and should do whatever he wants, without regard to whatever Ishihime or IshiNemu or IshiNoOne or IshiMyself shippers. I think it's also incorrect to think that everyone would have just as much fun with an open ending; after some shipping wars, it's actually a RELIEF to have some things tied off.

People - not necessarily you, but you're advocating it here, hence my reply - want an open ending so that "everyone can have fun", but it's also so that people can maintain their belief that "their ship is just as real as anyone else's and totally not in their heads!" - never explicitly forced to admit that they are "not canon", and that's elitism, too.

*whoo, sorry for the multiple edits, but I want to clarify things*

Edited at 2009-12-14 02:44 am (UTC)
(no subject) - aizome on December 14th, 2009 02:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karenai on December 14th, 2009 03:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aizome on December 14th, 2009 03:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - escarboucle on December 14th, 2009 07:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
Adam Eppadam_epp on December 14th, 2009 05:52 am (UTC)
Since when was Orihime's mother a whore? And where did it say her abilities interfere with God? I didn't even know there was a higher deity above the Shinigami.
oh gallant piglet,aizome on December 14th, 2009 06:33 am (UTC)
Aizen once said Orihime's powers "trespass on God's realm" or something to that effect. But yeah, I'd like to know where it was stated as fact that Orihime's mom was "a whore". I know her family was dysfunctional, hence Sora taking her away, but the specifics? Not so much.
(no subject) - escarboucle on December 14th, 2009 06:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aizome on December 14th, 2009 07:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - adam_epp on December 16th, 2009 04:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
tamzin: hisagiconquistadora on December 14th, 2009 10:06 am (UTC)
As far as Orihime goes, I think she's been criticized out the whazoo, and for good reason, and I myself have enjoyed smashing my own e-fist into her face for her infractions. So even though we go round and round with with the critique, I hardly ever see anything new, and it's probably because she hasn't made any new mistakes since we left her on the dome.
However, I don't think her healing Menoli and Loli is a mistake or something bad about her character. Yes, she is an idealist that wants to live in a fairytale and a perfect little world, but to say that there's something wrong with her for healing two people, one that was just ripped apart, and another that was half-blown away, I think is wrong in itself. I think she truly was being compassionate, whether it was to keep up the facade of the fairytale or not doesn't matter. I wouldn't want to live in a world where because someone smacked me around a little they deserve to be mutilated and killed. I wouldn't condone it and I can understand perfectly why Orihime couldn't. Hell, I can even understand her feeling compassion for them since Grim did worse to them than what was done to her.

2. IchiThing is Ichigo's Resurreccion.

I think it's a step closer to what his Resurreccion will be. The form he took on the dome wasn't the form that he took during his training arc with the Vaizard. It was lithe, it was speedy--a lot like what happens to him and Zangetsu when they undergo bankai: all of the reiatsu is compressed into something smaller in order to make speed more effective. It might not be a complete Resurreccion, but I think it's pretty damn close to it.

4. Hisagi/Rangiku

Lol, I've never considered this to be a problematic ship--is it? Maybe I'm just not getting around enough. It's obviously just a crush on Hisagi's part, hence why we only get omakes and drinking games that include no clothing.

7. Kubo is a big troll

... Well, I'm not going to say I don't think Kubo pulls stuff out of nowhere because he thought of it only recently.
Yammy was just too much fun, so I really don't care on that point whether it was planned or not. But does he come up with things just to blow our minds? Well, I would hope so, because if my mind isn't blown, then I'm obviously not being entertained very well.

8. Ichigo is asexual and there will be an open ending

He might be an immature teenage boy in spirit, not to mention pervert-in-denial, but asexual? Well, not only would Isshin not allow it (virility! springtime of youth! tatsuki's boobs!), but neither would Kon--the one who has the final say on Ichigo's body, let's be honest. XD

In closing, I will never accept that Gin isn't pulling Kira's metaphorical uke chain. Kubo can just feed me all the fanservice he wants *omnomnomnom*
Grenatescarboucle on December 14th, 2009 12:43 pm (UTC)
If I referred to this scene in particular, it's really that it struck me as "something is WRONG with Inoue". And that was because of her eyes and how she acted, it was as if she was lifeless. It was really a strong impression and I think that the chapter referring to her as a "Monster" was pretty meaningful, regarding not only her abilities but also how she acted. It was like her brain was on pause and that was why she absolutely had to "reject" that event.

I think that sometimes, I'm not in tune with the Bleach fandom; while everyone thought that she acted out of compassion, this is not how I viewed that. I do agree that she's compassionate and blabla, but I don't think taht she's Mother Theresa or something - or else, why would she chose to heal Ichigo over Nel? Why wouldn't she heal GJ, Nnoi and Tesla?

As far as I'm concerned, this scene hadn't got a thing to do with her "compassion", but that something was happening in Inoue's mind. I interpreted it as selfishness - selfishness because she couldn't stand to see her reality shattered - but maybe it's something else. Something was defintiely wrong in her scenes with the lolis (may it be her being beaten up or her healing them) and I truly think that Kubo was trying to point this out.

2. Oh, definitely. BUT that's because resurreccions are close to what true hollow forms truly are! Not the contrary. I think the form he had against the Vizards may simply be an earlier form; simply because Kubo likes to make looks change (let's remember that Ulq changed the place of his hole between his introduction chapter and later during the HM arc), but it can also point out that either Hichigo wasn't in total control or that his true hollow form evolved towards sompething more powerful.

4. I don't see it as a problem either. I ship older!Hitsu/Ran without thinking it'll be canon :D But HisaRan seems even more an afterthought from Kubo than anything else. But some people *winkdebILU* think that it really stands a chance, which I disagree with XD

7. Exactly; Kubo adds things as he writes, like, duh, EVERY author out there. But overall, it stays within the continuity of Bleach and IC. [Although I can probably point out one or two points that make no sense XD].

8. A lot of people argue that Ichigo is asexual XD It makes me sad, somehow D: Either that, or people label "immature" wrongly.

Last, Gin and Kira DO have a fascinating relationship XD
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 03:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - conquistadora on December 14th, 2009 03:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 04:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on December 14th, 2009 06:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 06:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - manonlechat on December 16th, 2009 05:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
K.: Chikane: kinda gorgeous.polina_slosvau on December 14th, 2009 12:55 pm (UTC)
Oooh, I like your analysis of Orihime and the relation between her powers and her characterisation. I don't usually bother too much with meta - I just sit back and enjoy the ride :P - but characterisation-wise, I think it's always really interesting.

I always assumed that IchiThing was linked to his inner Hollow. It looks way more like a Vasto Lorde than anything else we've seen in the series, which is just creepy. But I think it's obvious that he didn't control it. Ah, those chapters were such good reads...
littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC)
I always assumed that IchiThing was the consequence of depending on his Hollow side way too much, and since he was in the land of the dead, but the darker side, that part of him became too strong inside, and when Ichigo fell, it took over to become IchiThing.

But this is too theory-ish. Carry on, carry on.
(no subject) - escarboucle on December 14th, 2009 05:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 06:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
littlemeantiger on December 14th, 2009 02:49 pm (UTC)
I agree with everything. Especially the Orihime does not = Princess Orihime point. The reality rejection makes a lot of more sense now.

I just wish that the whole one-sided love between Orihime and Ichigo shall be resolved soon. It's been dragged for far too long now, it's getting sad to even acknowledge. Just because 'Hime was the only one who confessed vocally, doesn't mean that she now got infinite dibs that she'll definitely end up as Ichigo's housewife by the end of series, whether Ichigo has a say in it or anything. Oh silly me. What does the dude got to complain about? It's all about the B00bies isn't it?

Guess what? The poor girl's development does not need to completely depend on her romantic life for it to actually work. I know, what a shocker.

Hmm... I recall a certain shinigami who also had one-sided love problems, but to an obsessive level, perhaps even more than the Kurosaki-kuning. She was kinda hated by most of the fandom for that, but now she got out of her bubble and is *gasp* coping with her life without fully depending on her love life anymore... what was her name again? Hi.. M... Mo...

Drats. I can't remember. Maybe she should have stayed the same, so then my hatred for her would have remained the same, name remembrance and all. Character growth? Pffffft, Bleach has over 300+ chapters, now there's no time for that. Oh wait.
Grenatescarboucle on December 14th, 2009 05:10 pm (UTC)
I always thought that her powers were SO FITTING for her character, really. Especially since the HM arc started.

I think a lot of people wish that Inoue's feelings will be resolved soon. I think they will, personally; as I see it, the moment she had with Ulq was definitely there to make her grow. Yes, it's dragged for way too long and it ended in the worse way possible - that's why, now that it's done, I expect her to be better soon.

It's also been my beef that Inoue needs to stand up for herself first; that's something that has always been LACKING in her character development and I truly think it's coming. All the characters in Bleach certainly have goals, and are pushed by greater goals, however they DO stand up for themselves and the comparison with Inoue makes her look truly bad.

Ah, Momo. I remember, I hadn't had any problem with her during SS, and then, when she showed up in ch224, I truly HATED her for what she was doing. Then, she showed up in the FKT and she was awesome. Momo is typically a symbol of a character that has been broken and still manages to develop and show her strength.

If I had to draw a line between the good guys, I'd say there's Inoue on one side, and all the others on the other. Because truly, when you compare Inoue, she doesn't seem to fit - she failed all her vows, she's romance-centric, and even though every fucking character helped her, she's still showing a mental weakness, as if she's unable to overcome her problems.

This is why no one else but HER can help her at this point.
(Deleted comment)
Grenatescarboucle on December 14th, 2009 11:18 pm (UTC)
You're welcome XD Yes, those points are rather obvious to me too XD