Log in

No account? Create an account
16 October 2009 @ 01:10 pm
The Day After Chapter 378  

Impressions, Links to the impressions of others, some fan colorings, WAKA WAKA

I spent twelve hours on MSN yesterday talking about Bleach. Yes, there really was that much to talk about. For one, the return of the main character after a six month absence with new mask and his old partner there to tell the audience what she read in the eyes of Ichigo's soul (Rukia saw TROUBLE --that was the essence of the whole chapter).

The BIG event for lots of us was the IchiRuki reunion so that's why I was on the comp so long--a good many of my fandom friends are of the IchiRuki persuasion and a few (most notably, the lovely Rosencrantz and Guildenstern who some of you may remember from their obscenity-strewn meta here on bleachness, came back to yack my ear off about what a brilliant bastard is Kubo Tite.

After I got tired defining exactly what constitutes a Damsel in Distress and why Rukia wasn't one in this chapter and after my typing fingers went numb (if I'd actually been squeeing on the phone, I would've lost my voice), I said bye to my fandom pals and ate a little crazy Bleachtard's dinner of rice and otaku beans right at my computer while browsing the forums.

Maybe I managed some laundry then I jumped right back into the fray. There was the usual panning for clues and flurry of speculation--did Ichigo drop Rukia off on the roof of Szayel's lab? (we checked--he didn't),was that pendant around Ichigo's neck in the chapter cover Nejibana? (the jury is out--it looks like a trident but not quite Kaien's release). People were wondering why was Orihime taking so long to heal Ishida (resistant reiatsu? Oh noes!) and where oh where were the Captains and from whence had Ichigo's hakama suddenly grown in length over a leg that had previously been naked and could Ichigo really repel a cero oscura from the 0 Espada before even putting on his Hollow mask? Questions like these, large and small, dotty, dumb and unimportant are what make fandom fun.

What makes fandom not so fun is when the monitor starts to glow eerily in the wee hours, your blood sugar drops, and your malnourished braincells start to perceive every opinion differing from yours as scourges against the sanctity of manga, motherhood, and all that is moral and true. Yes, yes, Bleach is a shounen chock full of moral lessons for Japanese boys and other people who read its story and Kubo-sensei has been playing a poet's game with the shadings between Black and White since the beginning. The very name of the story, Bleach, is about the process of going from one color to another, but at four a.m. it's hard to tell what's me defending didactic storytelling and Kubo's brilliant parallels and what's me just being pissed off with wankers in the Bleach forums whining about their entitlement to entertainment and telling Kubo what kind of plot he should write and how. So I didn't post anything. I didn't want to offend anyone, least of all twelve-year old kids who just want MOAR BLOOD. But geez Louise, fandom had me boggled last night. It wasn't only bloodthirsty fanbois who wanted to cheer a hero with no "annoying" personal baggage (yes, I actually read a post where someone complained that Ichigo's constant worrying about his friends only got in the way of goooood carnage and killings) or IchiOri shippers who wanted to swoon over a hero who had sacrificed his humanity on a silver platter for his beloved--it wasn't just these folks who seemed to be misreading Ichigo, but a WHOLE LOT OF BLEACH FANS who seemed to think that Ichigo in this chapter called "Eyes of the Victor" was finally getting control of his Hollow problem and getting down to business.

Even after Rukia's words of concern, the chapter cover showing a drowning man, the recent volume 41 doodles showing Ichigo's Shinigami badge burning and breaking in half, there are still people who think that Ichigo's A-OKAAAAAAY?

Kubo-sensei, don't worry--it's not that you're not trying hard enough... it's just that some people aren't reading your manga.


Anyway, here's a good analysis of the chapter from Bleach Asylum's loquacious and wonderful neverwinter.. What struck me was that this sort of attitude was rare on the forums. There was a whole lot more "GO ICHIGO, SHOW YOUR STUFF, TAKE CARE OF YAMMY IN ONE SHOT!"

Jenni has an offering about the chapter up.

This chapter provided lots of signature and avatar material and here are just some of the really wonderful colorings I've seen of the panels (PLEASE CREDIT IF USING FOR GRAPHICS):

from CrimsonQuincy :

from Star-chan :

from mezzo_marinaio :

I really have not too much else to add to the discussion of the chapter except a couple original, albeit sure to be controversial observations I've made here and there: One, that Ichigo told a guilty lie. When Rukia tells Ichigo "I thought you were supposed to be saving Inoue," there's a long pause, Ichigo gives Rukia that WEIRD EYEBALL that is echoed later in the chapter as being the source of her suspicions and concerns, and we hear Ichigo answer that he did save Orihime. But did he? I think Ichigo feels guilty because he went to the dome to fight an Espada, not to save Inoue. Second, there's been some wondering among IchiRuki fans especially as to why Ichigo wasn't shown touching or holding or carrying Rukia in true hero style in this chapter--he did swoop in to save her a couple of times. My interpretation here is that Kubo doesn't want Ichigo to look heroic right now. Ichigo and Rukia are NOT connecting... this isn't at ALL a "reunion." Ichigo's not there--he's too troubled and Rukia sees all.

It's a huge set up for her involvement later. Ho ho.

Ichigo, meanwhile, is probably going to settle his emotional issues in the way of all shounen-on the battlefield. And so the audiences who were expecting him to sit down and have nice chat about his feeeeeelings with Orihime and Ishida are disappointed.

Ichigo just wants to fight. He always just wants to fight. I don't think he's ready at all to fight, but as someone pointed out elsewhere in this community, at least he's not sitting down and crying. Yes, trufax. Kurosaki Ichigo acts. This is good. Let's see if in the coming chapters he crashes and burns or if he really one-shots Yammy like so many "a man's got to be a demon on the battlefield" and "who needs chocolate? LEAVE YOUR CHOCOLATE BEHIND" crowd are preaching.

Finally, a question for my many Japanese fluent friends that I didn't get to bother them with yesterday except for lennan. Check the raws for the chapter cover, page 9. OneManga has the sidetext reading "Salvation Lies Beyond that Downcast Gaze" which is a line I thought fit in strangely with the baptismal imagery of submersion here. Bleachexile's scan (p. 10) reads "What Lies Beyond this Downcast Gaze?"

So what's the salvation word? lennan answered me this way:
What I got was, "The one who looks forward downcast, even if he saves...."

The kanji are "to save" and "to bend (one's head)", but the verb form "save" (sukuu) takes is unusual and is written as "sukuedo", which I hadn't seen before. I looked on google and came up with it being a 19th century form of "sukueba" or the hypothetical form from here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090601202449AAMjQPm where the best answer gave a link to google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=concessive+japanese+miredo&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi= which stated it as being the concessive form. But I can't really check them out right now since they're all pdfs and I'm at home on dial up.

Just another ten cent fandom question that means nothing and everything.
(Deleted comment)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 16th, 2009 09:19 pm (UTC)

Well, the counter there is that everyone reads for his or her own benefit--we're all selfish, needy creatures. The success or failure of an author may lie in many things but at least Kubo-sensei can be happy that he's dazzled so many people around the world and that Bleach has so many aficionados.

It's like those people who see Divine messages in their potato chips--you know they're going to be around but most people will just get the calories and enjoyment out of their Lays potato chips and not bitch that their personal bag didn't come with extra spicy taco flavor or something.

Bad metaphor day, haha.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 16th, 2009 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Kylara: henshinkarenai on October 16th, 2009 09:44 pm (UTC)
I don't know if it's exclusively a Western fan thing, but it's true that there is a hell of a lot of "All opinions are equal" and "There's no wrong way to interpret something, my viewpoint is just as good as yours." That's not true, because in fandom, these aren't opinions, like "I love Orihime!" or "IchiRuki is cute!" - people ARE arguing stuff here, and people pretending their "opinions" aren't arguments are fooling themselves.

This is an extreme example, but Kubo is the one who was upset when little boys thought the Soukyoku was Yamajii's sword. If he writes something like the Lust arc, he wants you to be sad at the end of it. I don't think Kubo is like Emily Dickinson, writing poetry in his little room with no desire to know what people think of it. The reason he wants to see what people think is also because he wants to see if his writing is reaching people, and eliciting certain reactions.

As for people thinking Ichigo is the man... I do kind of see why. This is not like Orihime screaming for Ichigo's body to save her, an action externally and internally just wrong. He's doing something that would probably be fine in other circumstances - he comes in, he's not screwing around, and there's a rather attractive sobriety in his demeanor.

The problem is NOT with the action itself - it's that Ichigo is doing this, hurrying up and fighting Yammy, because that is EASIER for him to deal with than what he's truly scared of, which is his own self. He's not being a brave man in this scene - he's being a coward, he's lying to himself and Rukia, and he knows it.

Edited at 2009-10-16 10:33 pm (UTC)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 16th, 2009 11:28 pm (UTC)
Guildenstern was telling me yesterday about wanting to spam the forums with YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO YOUR OWN OPINIONS BUT NOT TO YOUR OWN FACTS! .

And you're right--the problem isn't with Ichigo's actions or his intent to defeat an enemy threatening his friends.

His problem is HIS HOLLOW and does he have control of it and oh yeah, guilt, fear, shame--all those things that cause a warrior to hesitate and doubt on the battlefield. I don't think Ichigo's going to take care of business no way no how. If he one-shots Yammy, I'll be VERY surprised.

Edited at 2009-10-16 11:30 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on October 17th, 2009 09:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 09:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vkikay on October 18th, 2009 02:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
yah senbestyah_senbest on October 16th, 2009 10:15 pm (UTC)
1st thing 1st: yeah why's ichigo's hakama suddenly grow longer? we want nekkid!thigh-ichigo back!! hear this rabid fangirl, kubo!! *am gonna totally be shot right after this*
ok. got one thing out of my system. haha.

ok the chat with ros-or-guildy was interesting; nice choice of words! nice choice!! XDD "why was nii-sama being a prick" oh no byakkun's just shy and didn't know how to show affection like that.

on "who ichigo likes and that 'to-protect-box'": pedo!ichigo? so NOT ftw 3_3
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 16th, 2009 11:32 pm (UTC)

Have to admit it. I'm not exactly a rabid Ichigo fangirl--I'm fond of the boy but he's not one of my faves.

But I miss that nekky thigh look.
(no subject) - yah_senbest on October 16th, 2009 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 12:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yah_senbest on October 17th, 2009 04:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous) on October 17th, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 09:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
yulieana on October 16th, 2009 10:36 pm (UTC)
Is it just me, regardless of his current state, but doesn't he look kind of big and heroic here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/378/07/, while Rukia is cowering in the back ground? Ichigo always seems to look like DA MAN when he is around Rukia. While with Orihime, he is kind of an oblivious dumbass.

And the fact that most of his replies are with his head turned away seriously show his mental turmoil. I want him to sink even lower, I want him to lose to Yammy and someone else come and rescue everyone (Unohana's bankai FTW), while Ichigo painfully realizes that he is NOT the ultimate protector. I am feeling a bit sadistic at the moment but I don't give a damn.

I also wonder if he is mentally kicking himself for what he did to Ulquiorra, and not just the nakama.
_debbiechan_: Ichigo spinning by Jaina_debbiechan_ on October 16th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)

He had that hero look in front of Orihime when he stepped in front of her to protect her from Yammy when the Arrancar FIRST came to Earth. That really awesome heroic Ichigo seems to have been absent in the HM arc--everyone talks about this fail!Ichigo but I can't quite put my finger on what's missing other that Kubo is drawing him more skinny, and there's that ominous malevolent Hollow THING taking over Ichigo's soul...

yeah, that's gotta be it. LOL. It's been a dark arc. Syn calls The Empire Strikes Back part of Bleach--everyone's been hit hard and Ichigo has been something less than his winning boyish hero self--forget his loss of moral ground in the Ulquiorra fight--he even lost his first place standing in the popularity polls with the fans.
(no subject) - yulieana on October 16th, 2009 11:54 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - animefantasyfan on October 17th, 2009 01:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yulieana on October 16th, 2009 11:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yah_senbest on October 16th, 2009 11:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 03:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yulieana on October 17th, 2009 03:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 04:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yulieana on October 17th, 2009 04:18 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 04:25 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
goddychangoddychan on October 17th, 2009 01:11 am (UTC)
Whenever Ichigo gets upset or feels extreme guilt about something, he goes all out and fights balls to the walls, which is what he's about to do now.

Other than that..

*nosebleeds at swimsuit picture*

Nice to see Sado actually in something, even though it's doujinshi.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 01:24 am (UTC)

Yeah, well you could say that his guilt over his mom was a great driving factor behind well--the whole SS arc, but now Yammy's got this ... I don't know how else to put it comical opponent and it just doesn't seem like a worthy adversary for him and his principles the way Byakuya was. Ichigo STOOD for something back then. Right now he's just going power against power.

Anyways, should be good. I do hope we get a fun, not-long fight. I just can't see Ichigo winning easily OR with any of his "hero-mode" on.
(no subject) - goddychan on October 17th, 2009 01:44 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 01:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - goddychan on October 17th, 2009 01:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kim!: Mmm... Jump...spartydragon on October 17th, 2009 01:33 am (UTC)
Ichigo's gonna go Ichithing again at the drop of the hat, I figures. Should be interesting.
_debbiechan_: ken chan!_debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 01:50 am (UTC)

IchiThing should demolish Yammy and then Kenpachi shows up and fights IchiThing!


I really want this to happen. *sends out little prayer*
(no subject) - goddychan on October 17th, 2009 01:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - spartydragon on October 17th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - bunnisteffi on October 17th, 2009 02:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - yulieana on October 17th, 2009 03:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
inner_angel: mindfuckinner_angel on October 17th, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)
An icon to sum up my feelings after reading the chapter; inspired by all the comments here...

(coloring from mezzo_marinaio)

I'll join the worried-sick-for-Ichigo club :(
_debbiechan_: All Turn Out OK_debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 01:53 am (UTC)

Just tell yourself it'll be angsty but goooood and angsty. Rukia's got his back!
Ichigo's nakama are all there for him. Who knows--we might get a group hug after all this!


Okay, that was a bit much but after Renji's dorky chant with the joining of hands, you just KNOW everything's going to end up all right and cheesily so by the end.
(no subject) - goddychan on October 17th, 2009 02:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - vitiates on October 17th, 2009 04:45 am (UTC) (Expand)
r0ck3tsci3ntist - sorry, kiddingr0ck3tsci3ntist on October 17th, 2009 03:45 am (UTC)
I agree that Ichigo isn't right. When I said he shows "Game Face" it IS because he wants to end it - but that's because he's been hit smack in the face suddenly with everything he's done wrong. He isn't ready to face Rukia with that yet and he doesn't have time to process it.

Anyway, these next few chapters should be interesting.
tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 04:32 am (UTC)
Okay, I'm sorry, but I've been pondering this for about an hour.

When you wrote "who needs chocolate? LEAVE YOUR CHOCOLATE BEHIND" I seriously thought "but Yammi's an animal, right? Shouldn't you bring the chocolate? It's like poison..." but I have no idea what this means.

Who is saying this? Why are they saying this? What the heck, "chocolate?" Is that some new slang in bleach fandom? And what does this have to do in not offing Yammi in one blow? I'm stumped, I can't figure any of this out. If you could just shoot me a line like, "hey, don't be an idiot, it means [blah, blah, blah]" that'd be great. Because this is bothering me.
Kylarakarenai on October 17th, 2009 06:22 am (UTC)
The Dordonii fight from the beginning of Hueco Mundo, the dude who keeps calling Ichigo "nino" (I'm too lazy to get the enye key). He tells Ichigo he needs to be a demon to beat demons. Sorry, I don't know the chapter numbers... but I'm pretty sure he's Ichi's first HM opponent.
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 02:01 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karenai on October 17th, 2009 10:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - hallowd on October 17th, 2009 07:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - tuathafae on October 17th, 2009 01:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
nehalenianehalenia on October 17th, 2009 04:44 am (UTC)
I love thinky-speculaty posts like this! (Especially when coming down from a very LONG evening working a poetry reading.)

I don't recall where I saw it, but one translation (or maybe even scan) had Ichigo saying '...she's rescued' instead of '... I saved her'. Can the Japanese speakers weigh in on that one? I know nothing about Japanese grammar but since one is passive and the other active, I thought it might be easy to sort out. I'm interested because '...she's rescued' has intriguing implications.
(Anonymous) on October 17th, 2009 08:51 am (UTC)
I'm only a 2nd/3rd year Japanese student, but I think this is a simple enough phrase to interpret, though if other folks have differing opinions, please correct me ASAP.

I took a look at the raw, and Ichigo literally says only "tasuketasa" for that line. The verb is "tasukeru," to save, conjugated in past tense, "saved," while the "sa" is just a masculine way to end a sentence.

It's a typically short subject- and object-less Japanese sentence. Since Rukia specified, "Didn't you (Ichigo) go to save Inoue?" when she asked him, there's no need for him to repeat, "I, Ichigo, went and saved her, Inoue." If someone else had done the saving, though, he would have had to specify who it was to avoid the default interpretation that he did it.

So yeah, "she's rescued" is a pretty literal barebones translation, but it leaves off the implied meaning that Ichigo saving her, which I would include in an English translation because it's something that native Japanese speakers would all have picked up from that line.

- moonflowers from BA (another longtime bleachness lurker)
(no subject) - karenai on October 17th, 2009 06:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
nehalenia: chad interp dancenehalenia on October 17th, 2009 06:10 am (UTC)
BTW, I started thinking about the Chad and Renji thing. While I hate that they are down, especially because they just got healed and all, from a story-telling and characterization POV, they pretty much had to be down and unconscious because if either of them had an ounce of strength left in his body, Yammy would not be squeezing Rukia in his big ugly fist.

I'm not giving KT an out -- I think he *could* have thought of a better way to handle this and not make Chad and Renji FAIL again -- but I think his need to have Rukia be the last one standing so she could see what is happening to Ichigo trumped all other story concerns.

That said, I hope KT redeems them. The rest of the nakama do need some kind of power-up or the manga is going to start resembling the anime fillers: no humans need apply. :/
Kylara: squeeeekarenai on October 17th, 2009 06:25 am (UTC)
I think Kubo threw Chad and Renji under a bus because all he cares about right now is Rukia seeing Ichigo.

I'd cry over them not getting a nice demonstration but if Kubo serves me IchiRuki Bond on a platter - A SILVER ONE EVEN - I'll just have to hope they get their time later. >_>
(no subject) - nehalenia on October 17th, 2009 06:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - karenai on October 17th, 2009 07:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
honeyhammer: Bleach: Mr. Jeagerjacquezhoneyhammer on October 17th, 2009 06:19 am (UTC)
I find it interesting that Ichigo calls the fight with Yammy a "stupid little fight." That's never something I've heard come from him. metaphore_art made the observation that it's Ichigo relaying the utter exhaustion, physically and mentally, that has resulted from this entire deal within Hueco Mundo. I couldn't agree more. At the same time, I can't help but feel like calling it a "stupid little fight" was also a statement laced with self-loathing for himself at the moment.

Ichigo came to Hueco Mundo to fight. He came to HM to engage in numerous "stupid little fights." Fights which were ultimately meaningless - fights because he wanted to fight. When Rukia asks him, "I thought you went up there to save Orihime?" and he replies, "....I did save her," he essentially avoids the question of "Didn't you go up there to save her?" The answer is no, he went up there to fight Ulquiorra. But he avoids this, rather, this realization, that he truly wished to fight this opponent over simply rescuing Inoue. Orihime was in no immediate danger - KT removes any threat regarding that once Ulquiorra says that he will not kill her.

Thus, the fight Ichigo enters is one because he wants to fight. Yes, Orihime's freedom as well, but that is not the pure intention, and thus this fight loses its pure meaning. It's a fight for a fight. Essentially, it is meaningless. However, in the end, Ichigo loses something huge over this "stupid little fight." He loses his humanity and his heart; he brutally kills an enemy he didn't want to kill, and most of all, he attempted to kill a nakama in his loss of control. I'd argue that after he observes the moment between Ulquiorra and Orihime (since it's obvious from the panels that he clearly saw it), I think it really sinks in that this was not the right opponent to kill, both with his regained humanity and his connection with Orihime.

Ichigo pretty much lost everything he honors over nothing - over his desire to fight, and a fight that lost pure purpose early on. Rukia notes this; Ichigo is not all there - mentally, I think he's really close to a breakdown. He's not prepared to truly cut down the enemy, because mentally, I think he's loathing himself for what his drive to fight has gotten him (and the people he cares for) into.

I was worried that the events of the dome were going to be grazed over, but KT isn't letting the boy off easily. This seems to just be the tip of the iceberg.

Sel: book heartselcouth_prose on October 17th, 2009 04:20 pm (UTC)
You...you...completely summed up what I was having trouble putting into words.

Thank you! <3
(no subject) - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 04:31 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - schweinsty on October 18th, 2009 03:04 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - honeyhammer on October 19th, 2009 12:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
wiltorawiltora on October 17th, 2009 02:09 pm (UTC)
The only thing I have to say about this chapter is that it annoys me how many people seem to be so caught in the "Ichigo is drowning" that they don't get other little details.

Like the fact that when Rukia fires a kido spell and Yammy goes all "It hurts! It hurts!!" his eyes are telling "That didn't even sting, I'm using sarcasm here". Yeah I know it's a stupid detail but when some people go on and comment about how pathetic it is that Tite made the 0 Espada get damage from an exhausted Rukia and a kido spell it pisses me off, specially when they later go on and make great readings about Ichigo's eyes and mental state. Really, Ichigo throws a Getsuga to Yammy's face stopping a forming cero (not a fired one like some say) and all Yammy does is cough, then he's back to the offensive. I don't know if it's because people don't trust Tite to keep a minimal coherence to the strength levels (which are screwed in Bleach yeah but they still held a minimal coherence so far) and make Yammy weak enough to get damage from Rukia's kido spell -which doesn't fit with the story either, if a kido spell could damage him Renji and Chad's attacks should have killed him already-, or that they are so caught up with Ichigo's doom -which was already announced six months ago although people seem to act as if it was finally announced just now- that they just don't get the sarcasm in Yammy's painful moans. I hope the anime will be able to deal with that better with the voice acting and all, after all sarcasm is often lost in literature.

Other things, people reading the "stupid fight" line as referred to HM. I agree it has dragged too long and that their decision to rush there was stupid and all, and that Yammy is not what I would have chosen as the final boss in this mission -Ulquiorra was awesome enough for that dammit-. But Ichigo mentions going back to the real world before that line, which personally makes me think he's referring to all the war and not just HM. Kenpachi told him that Karakura was under attack -mostly-, Ichigo knows there's a fight there, he thinks his family and friends there are in danger and I doubt he trusts the SS to protect the people there properly.

Now he's tired, exhausted, physically and mentally, his hollow is driving him crazy, he hurt his friends in a direct way not just their feelings, he "won" a battle that he wanted to win on his own and in a different way, he doesn't feel like a victor or a heroe much less a shinigami. I think the line about the stupid fight refers to the whole shinigami thing, he became one to PROTECT his family, he continued being one because at the moment he wanted to and wanted to keep protecting, and he went to the SS to SAVE and PROTECT. But after the SS thing it all went downhill, he's being pushed around to fight fights he doesn't want, fights he shouldn't be worried about, both by the SS and Aizen himself. HM is not like the SS, while he went to both places to SAVE, as soon as he saved Rukia back in the SS it was all mostly over, he didn't have to keep fighting. In HM he has managed to get his hands on Inoue only to have her snatched again and be forced to keep fighting, even after Inoue is finally out of harm he STILL has to go on fighting. And he's tired of it all, it's hurting him and it's hurting his friends, it's destroying him and knowing Ichigo he probably feels at his weakest seeing how he's not able to keep his friends out of harm, specially when the harm comes from him. With the scraps about the shinigami badge burning and all that has been going on I think Ichigo is at the verge of not only having a mental breakdown but of throwing away the shinigami thing, at the end both things are deeply tied and connected but I think that the shinigami issue is a key part.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 04:34 pm (UTC)

Like the fact that when Rukia fires a kido spell and Yammy goes all "It hurts! It hurts!!" his eyes are telling "That didn't even sting, I'm using sarcasm here". Yeah I know it's a stupid detail but when some people go on and comment about how pathetic it is that Tite made the 0 Espada get damage from an exhausted Rukia and a kido spell it pisses me off, specially when they later go on and make great readings about Ichigo's eyes and mental state.

Poor Yammy. He just doesn't get enough love and perusal of his panels. I read that scene as Yammy being annoyed about getting some sand in his eye, not that he was really hurt. And yeah, Yam does sarcasm. "Ooops my hand slipped." I expect more of that in the upcoming fight. Yammy's a joker. He's a comical character. I expect at least one more laugh from his antics before he meets his end.
(Anonymous) on October 17th, 2009 09:30 pm (UTC)
Oh shi--
Oh wow, I had totally forgotten you'd posted that chat transcript here. I was like 'Who wrote this? This is pr-- WTF I DID, WHERE IS ALL THE SWEARING, I AM PRETTY SURE I CALLED SEVERAL PEOPLE A MOT--' and then Ros clobbered me.

My opinions are pretty much unchanged from when we wrote that, too. I still think Ichigo operates under the 'Ladder Theory' in his relationships, I still think what we said about Orihime and Rukia pretty much holds true, and I especially still think Ishida needs to buck the fuck up and get his testes to drop already so that he can develop some MANLY FORTITUDE or he's gonna get Renji'd.

...Sorry, Deb. :(

//"The very name of the story, Bleach, is about the process of going from one color to another"//

I thought Kubo named it after an Nirvana album.

I was fully expecting the "HURRRR FIGHTAN" crowd to be exceptionally pleased with this chapter, but this is because I play MMORPGs, so I am used to the teenyboppers and their....curious interpretations of things.

But NOTHING will ever prepare me for the "Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee rukia r a did lolz omg ichigo is just high off of LOVE and DREAM from being next 2 orihimez lolroflpwnsauce". Just....no. If you didn't read this chapter and come away disturbed and certain that nothing positive came from the Ulquiorra/Ichigo fight vis-a-vis Ichigo, you are either 12 years old or poss. blind, learning delayed etc.
_debbiechan_: smile_debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 09:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Oh shi--

I think Ishida and his testicles of steel (seriously, read the lust arc and tell me he doesn't have them--HE WALKED RIGHT UP TO ICHITHING AND TOOK ITS HAND AND TOLD IT TO PLAY NICE) will face the scariness that is Orihime one day. It seems to follow. Renji, the one known for his impulsiveness, waited forty years too long to tell Rukia his feelings. Ishida the cautious one... well, maybe he'll just be smart enough to realize when time is running out.

I can hope. They're alone together right now up on the dome. Under the Las Noches moon. She's healing him in her golden bubble. Verrrrry romantic. <3
Re: Oh shi-- - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 09:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh shi-- - (Anonymous) on October 17th, 2009 09:53 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh shi-- - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 10:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh shi-- - karenai on October 17th, 2009 10:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Oh shi-- - _debbiechan_ on October 17th, 2009 11:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
V to the A to the D-E-R (Vader!)jaina on October 18th, 2009 05:05 pm (UTC)
This is totally late, but I meant to comment so I will. Thanks for link collecting--I do like reading interesting opinions but I can't cope with BA on a general level. I liked neverwinter's post a lot except for one thing--I think s/he's hugely misreading Rukia actually managing to hurt Yammy. Of course she didn't seriously injure him. It probably DID sting, because even huge powerful beings don't like getting a sharp poke to the eye, but it was really just an excuse for Yammy to mock her all "Oh, yeah? You think you can fight back? EAT DIRT, TINY PERSON."
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on October 18th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)

That's exactly how I took it--SAND IN THE EYE. Yammy is so sarcastic. <3
(no subject) - jaina on October 18th, 2009 05:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)