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06 February 2008 @ 11:59 am
Fandom chat: Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Live.  

I've reached the plateau of crazy where I am actually going to present a copy and paste of a chat about fandom.

Warning: shippy-related stuffs but smart & entertaining enough bleachness that I'd thought I'd copy the text of this "chat" here. The opinions expressed therein do not necessarily represent those of debbiechan.

The following is more like an interview than a "chat", honestly, with Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, two of the liveliest people in the Bleach fandom who rock my world with their insight and humor.  Most of my chats with them are simple fangirling translation emergencies. (ME: "Guildy, is the kanji in that omake calling us Bleach fans CRAZY?" "Guildy: It says creepy actually") but my friend Jaimie had the foresight to actually record one of her bleach convos with this pair and preserve some bits for posterity.

Forgive me for cutting and pasting this LooooOONg thing--it's excerpted from a post in the IchiRuki FC at BA but for some reason LJ doesn't like my linking to individual posts there. Guildy and Ros usually manage to distill a lot of my meandering fangirling into concise, funny observations that make me go "Oh yeah! That's what I thought!" 

previews:

--Rukia and Orihime have some pretty big faults, but in totally opposite directions


--Only when Ichigo is forced to put down the 'sword' by the emergence of Chad's own power and by Chad's own insistence, does he become within the range of Ichigo's 'embrace'


--I don't 'ship', I just fucking read


As with all stuffs here, discourse encouraged, provoking trolly comments with be deleted. IT IS POSSIBLE TO DISAGREE, Y'KNOW, WITHOUT FANDOM DRAMA. E.G: Guildy thinks Ishida needs to "grow a pair" before she'll consider the IshiHime ship and I haven't slandered her name on fandomsecrets.



note for anyone who cares---the bold text indicates Guildy or Ros' responses (they share a comp) but when the black text reads Ros: it's Ros talking, when there's nothing proceeding the text, that's Guildy.

The flaws of Rukia and Orihime, their effects on Ichigo:

Jaimie says: so... do you think it's true that rukia has a problem with self hate?
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia has an extremely bad case of 'Nobody would be -really- hurt if I died'
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Guildy and I have discussed it--I think Rukia has a low sense of...value? of herself.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: She values other people highly, much more highly than herself.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: But one of her major faults I think is that she doesn't realize that it goes both ways, and that if she were gone it would hurt people.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I think she finally realized that when she flashed back to Kaien during the fight with Aaro.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Because her guilt over Kaien's death had a lot to do with that, I think--someone she saw as so fundamentally -good- died and she was the one who killed him, and she lived.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: But when she realized that that good person valued her a great deal, she understood that not only would Kaien have not wanted her to die, but that she was misrepresenting him in her memory by projecting her lack of self-value onto him.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And coming to the conclusion that he would have ever asked for her life.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: It was only hearing that he wanted her to kill her friends who she valued more than herself that snapped her out of it.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: For a while there she was willing to believe that Kaien would have blamed her, because her memory was colored by her blaming herself.
Guildy or Ros says: The difficulty Is Rukia doesn't value herself highly, but at the same time, she's not a self-hating person
Guildy or Ros says: She just doesn't see what other people see in her. She's introverted and kind of shy, not self-hating.
Guildy or Ros says: It's not a 'I hate myself' thing so much as a 'What do you see in -me-?'
Guildy or Ros says: Orihime is almost the exact opposite of Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Orihime -does- have issues with self-hatred I think.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: You can hear some of the stuff she says offhand-- "I'm despicable, I'm bad"--you don't hear that kind of stuff from Rukia.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Rukia thinks of other people, and the self vanishes in that.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Orihime thinks of other people, and the self is magnified.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: It's what paralyzes Orihime, because she looks at other people and the effect she has on them and she sees a "bad effect" she has on them.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Rukia doesn't even look at her interactions with people (which is sometimes a bad thing, because she didn't reflect on how she and Renji fell out for a looooong time), she'll change the way she deals with people by the second to fit the situation.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: How she handles Ichigo is a good example.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: When she accidentally hurts his feelings toward the start of the series, she immediately changes how she handles him.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Whereas Orihime would have probably left, obsessed over what she did wrong, blamed herself, ect.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I think that's the difference.
Guildy or Ros says: Orihime would have apologized and buggered off
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia stops and just changes tactics.
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia and Orihime have some pretty big faults, but in totally opposite directions
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia loves Orihime because she sees Orihime and all her friends as 'greater' than herself
Guildy or Ros says: Orihime can't help but love Rukia for being so lovable, but is jealous of her in spite (or maybe in addition) to it
Guildy or Ros says: It's not like one is worse than the other, it's just that Orihime's faults hinder her more in dealing with Ichigo than Rukia's
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Rukia is more mature.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: But she's done some childish stuff I think just out of plain ignorance in how to deal with people.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Her method of handling social situations worked out badly when she and Renji had their falling out.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Because rather than stop to question what he was doing and why, she just assumed he didn't want her.
Guildy or Ros says: Same thing with Byakuya Guildy or Ros says: Instead of questioning why he was treating her that way, she just rolled over and accepted it as 'Because I'm not good enough for Nii-sama' and that was it.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: That she kept trying to please him was kind of tragic, because he didn't deserve her consideration, really. >_>; But that's the way she is and she hurts herself with it.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I think, again, it came to a head in the Aaro fight.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: When "Kaien" told her he blamed her for his death and wanted revenge, and rather than think rationally, her response was, "Oh, of course." It didn't occur to her that that was weird.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Because that's what she'd been thinking all along.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: In that situation Orihime's approach might have actually worked better, because Orihime allows herself to be hurt by rejection. XD

Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Which means she analyzes it.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Rukia doesn't analyze the reasons 'why' she's rejected--that she -was- rejected is enough. She assumes people are better than her by default, so the fault must lie with her and they must be right.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: So rather than think, "Hey, Nii-sama's being kind of a prick" it's "I have to work harder."
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And instead of "Oh damn, Kaien-dono used to not be batshit fucking insane" it's "I knew I had done the wrong thing."
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Ichigo at least she doesn't do that with--thank god.
Jaimie says: why is that
Guildy or Ros says: Because Ichigo at the start she viewed as someone she had to teach
Guildy or Ros says: So he was 'equal' Guildy or Ros says: And viewing him as 'equal' from the start, she came to see that he was almost brutally honest
Guildy or Ros says: And she trusts him for that. She knows that he's too honest to play a game with her or run a facade.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Pretty much. His acceptance was never conditional on her being "good enough."
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: They met in a situation where frankly neither of them were at their best and it bred nothing but honesty. >____>

Guildy or Ros says: Ros: The fact that he was dependant on her for the power and knowledge to do what he had to do made her the authority figure.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And that I think gave her the confidence to not defer to him.
Guildy or Ros says: And not deferring to him, she was able to see eventually that he actually valued her and that wasn't going to change. Guildy or Ros says: And that's why she doesn't do that with Ichigo, because he's inherently 'trustworthy'
Guildy or Ros says: Because she actually took the time to stop and think about how they interact, to some small extent. She knows him and therefore isn't afraid of his rejection.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Also, after getting spinal tapped by her big brother and dropkicked by Renji, told to get the fuck off Soul Society's lawn, and ending up half hollow he still wanted her alive.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: So basically if he were going to drop her for fucking up, he would have already done it. >____>
Guildy or Ros says: So when Rukia says "That's the kind of man you are" she means it XD
Guildy or Ros says: That's what makes the dynamic interesting. The type of person that attracts Ichigo:
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Ichigo is attracted to people who have a will to power.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Because they're like him.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Whether that's power to protect, or stand up for themselves, or for what they believe in, or whatnot. Every person he has ever had a connection with has taken their fate into their own hands.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: He -cannot- connect with someone who allows themselves to be under his protection. He doesn't disdain those weaker than him, but they're not his equals.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I hate to say it, but if you look at the difference in his relationships with his sisters, you see it.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Karin is the one he's honest with. Yuzu is the little kid.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Chad and Ishida, Guildy just brought up.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Ishida tells him to go to hell and Chad tries to make him happy. Look who he leaves home.
Guildy or Ros says: That's the reason that people tend to get a little upset with Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia doesn't give Ichigo what he wants.
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo wants to 'protect' Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: But she refuses to be put 'lower' than him on the scale. She KNOWS him.
Guildy or Ros says: That's why she had him get pinned down while she pwned D Roy
Guildy or Ros says: Why she gave him shit about not wanting them to split up
Guildy or Ros says: Why when she got hurt, she told him to stop being 'arrogant' about feeling like he was to blame
Guildy or Ros says: I think she can sense that once you get put in the 'protected' box, you're no longer equal
Guildy or Ros says: And Rukia won't accept that from Ichigo. So she fights him.
Guildy or Ros says: Some people see that as 'bitchy'.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Well, it's true, if she didn't stand up to him there'd be no attraction there.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Which is IMO why Ichigo/Orihime is so out of character.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: /tangent Guildy always says looking at it makes her feel like a pedophile
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And I think it's because the idea of Ichigo fawning over someone because of their purity and goodheartedness is so alien to his character that it gives anyone who knows him well the creeps.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: She's so dependant on him that it comes off as creepy--he's never cared about her personality so much, he pats her on the head and treats her like Yuzu, yet he wants to play bongos on her tits?
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Like, ew? D: Rukia vs. Tatsuki, their "bitchiness" towards Ichigo: Jaimie says: (and slightly off-topic, why do people think rukia is bitchy but not tatsuki?)
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: >____> Because Tatsuki doesn't have a fighting chance of screwing Ichigo.
Guildy or Ros says: Because Rukia is shown as being close to Ichigo in a unique way, and she's harsh to Ichigo where most people would melt and pat him on his fuzzy head.
Guildy or Ros says: What people don't get is that when Rukia is harsh, it's EXACTLY what he needs.
Guildy or Ros says:
When Rukia snaps back at him or when she puts him in his place, or when she pops him one
Guildy or Ros says: He -needs- that
Guildy or Ros says: Like, for example
Guildy or Ros says: I remember the hue and cry when Rukia showed up in HM and popped him one in the jaw
Guildy or Ros says: People were like "OMG what a bitch, why did she hit him?! How did he know she would come back?'
Guildy or Ros says: The point was, he NEEDED to get hit. Getting smacked by Rukia or yelled at by Rukia is what keeps him grounded. XD Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Interestingly, Renji is not a bitch for hitting him.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Also Ichigo is not a bitch for telling Rukia her opinions are null and void or that he's here to save her and she might as well STFU or ect. ect. >_>
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Maybe it's because NICE GIRLS DON'T GIVE BOYS SHIT, OH NOES D:
Guildy or Ros says: Pretty much. Rukia's not a "nice" girl. Guildy or Ros says: But Rukia gives Ichigo what he needs to hear. Guildy or Ros says: By being rough she's being direct.
Guildy or Ros says: And strangely, Ichigo's impression of Rukia is not a 'rough' or 'mean' person.
Guildy or Ros says: Also Renji automatically goes in the 'huh' box
Guildy or Ros says: Because Ichigo beat him once.
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia hits Ichigo and yells at Ichigo because if she didn't. she wouldn't be Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: And Ichigo likes and trusts Rukia, and knows she's going to make her displeasure known if he fucks up
Guildy or Ros says: But he also knows she'll back him up and won't reject him. So yeah, he needs the slaps. Ichigo: Superman or just plain Ichigo?
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: People who won't tell him when he's wrong and defer to his authority I think put so much pressure on him to be perfect without even knowing it that he can't possibly think of them as anything other than bone china to be packed up.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: >_> But Ichigo
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I think he has the hero complex going on like whoa.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And when someone like Orihime looks up to him, the reason he can't see them as equals is because he feels he has to be worthy of that trust.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Because he's anxious to do right by the people who depend on him.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: But by that same token when they depend on him he can't be human to them any more.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: He has to be Superman.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And that's what Orihime doesn't realize. She's torn between wanting him to be Superman because that's all the attention he pays to her and she respects the heroics and wanting him to pay attention to her for, y'know, her.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: But he can't do both at once.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: And, as Guildy points out, she recently inadvertantly encouraged him in that by freaking out when she saw the mask.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: It pretty much reinforced the idea that he can't let her see anything bad, or scary, or weak about him and still be accepted.
Guildy or Ros says: He can't wear the mask, he can't be 'Superman' without becoming 'not Kurosaki-kun' to Orihime
Guildy or Ros says: Which is the kiss of death....
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Whereas Rukia brings up the Hollow and is just like, "So chain him up and get in the car already."
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia acknowledges the Hollow inside, but she also tells Ichigo that she knows he's stronger than it. Rukia doesn't show fear of him, if she even -feels- fear of Ichigo.

Added by Guildy today:
Guildy or Ros says: The whole thing with Ichigo protecting people and therefore he cannot find them 'equal'
Guildy or Ros says: I was thinking the other day, it reminds me of the Bleach chapter poem
Guildy or Ros says: 'If I do not grasp the sword, I cannot protect you. While I hold it, I cannot embrace you'
Guildy or Ros says: That's the entire argument summed up.
Guildy or Ros says: If you look at it that way, it's very clear. And especially in reference to the picture of Chad.
Guildy or Ros says: Look at Chad-- textbook example
Guildy or Ros says: While Ichigo is 'protecting' Chad, he cannot admit him as an equal
Guildy or Ros says: Only when Ichigo is forced to put down the 'sword' by the emergence of Chad's own power and by Chad's own insistence, does he become within the range of Ichigo's 'embrace'
Guildy or Ros says: Whereas before his ass was getting left at home. The NAKAMA scene: Jaimie says: so what'd you think of the nakama scene?
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo has never thought of Rukia as his 'comrade' because Rukia has always been more to him than his 'comrade' Guildy or Ros says: Orihime said it in SS arc.
Guildy or Ros says: She's more than a nakama to him, because she rocked I MEAN CHANGED his world
Guildy or Ros says: So there's 'friends' and then there's 'Rukia'
Guildy or Ros says: "Rukia" has her own category Guildy or Ros says: Rukia however, in her splendid non-thinking totally not personal relations inclined self
Guildy or Ros says: Takes one look at the situation and wants to be acclaimed as his 'nakama' because to Rukia's mind....Well, fuck! You're somebody's NAKAMA.
Guildy or Ros says: That is heavy shit.
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia's probably never been a 'nakama' before, and seeing how highly she values other people, that's a big deal to her. Guildy or Ros says: Because it means people value her.
Guildy or Ros says: And she's new to that whole 'value' thing.
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo has always valued her, but never thought of her as his 'friend'
Guildy or Ros says: Because she's always been more to him.
Guildy or Ros says: The reason Rukia reacted so strongly to Ichigo going to HM without her
Guildy or Ros says: Is that to Rukia, it probably seemed like just the barest hint of a beginning of a backslide into REJECT REJECT REJECT 'cause you're a SISSY
Guildy or Ros says: So she ran barreling into HM, slapped his ass in the face
Guildy or Ros says: And then earnestly asked him 'Why didn't you wait? I'm your comrade, right? You value me, right?'
Guildy or Ros says: And Ichigo was like "......Um, nakama, right' Jaimie says: so... did he understand why rukia asked him if they were nakama?
Guildy or Ros says: I think he saw how much it meant to her to be acknowledged as his 'comrade'
Guildy or Ros says: Even if to him he'd never thought of her as his 'comrade' before
Guildy or Ros says: I think that's why he did the ^^: face at her when she was all like 'DON'T MAKE ME ACT RETARDED'
Guildy or Ros says: Because he knew how much it meant to her
Guildy or Ros says: And she was trying to play it off. Ichigo and Rukia's feelings for each other: Jaimie says: what do you think ichigo feels towards rukia, and vice versa? Jaimie says: they don't seem to be on the same page since rukia is "something more than a nakama" and rukia's still working on "nakama"
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo feels more for Rukia than Rukia does for him
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo has been hard gay for Rukia for a while, even if he didn't know it
Guildy or Ros says: I think Ichigo has been <3 for Rukia for a while now
Guildy or Ros says: Ever since she tried to protect him, got hauled back to SS and he sat in school thinking to himself 'Huh, the world hasn't stopped revolving yet even though she's gone'
Guildy or Ros says: She's been in another category with him for a while now.
Guildy or Ros says: He just doesn't really stop to think about it because.....well, he's ICHIGO
Guildy or Ros says: But Orihime called it in SS
Guildy or Ros says:
She's more than just his 'comrade', she's special
Guildy or Ros says: Because she changed him
Guildy or Ros says: When she came back from SS, when Matsumoto said the face he made was 'kind of cute <3'
Guildy or Ros says: He was so pathetically relieved to see her, because his life was spiraling out of control and to him, she's a very stabilising force
Guildy or Ros says: He's <3 for her, but it's not the first thing on his mind right now
Guildy or Ros says: And he wouldn't even know how to begin to express it
Guildy or Ros says: So he settles for going @_______@ at her when she's hurt, trying to protect her and being a general fag.
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia has an incredibly high value for him Guildy or Ros says: The same way she had for Kaien
Guildy or Ros says: But the catch is--- Ichigo isn't married, w
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia is so emotionally stunted, just 'nakama' is like 'whoa huge' for her.
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo was past 'nakama' months ago
Guildy or Ros says: See what I mean? About Rukia dragging Ichigo to apologize to Orihime:
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia dragging Ichigo to Orihime to apologize wasn't for Orihime
Guildy or Ros says: It was for HIM
Guildy or Ros says: By taking him to Orihime and making him fucking TALK
Guildy or Ros says: It helped him to face up to the fact that while he 'failed' to protect them, it was because he had been scared of himself and had been acting like a 'tard
Guildy or Ros says: Reaffirming his commitment to his 'nakama' helped him rebolster his 'fighting spirit' and stop gimping around like a kicked puppy
Guildy or Ros says: Which Rukia cannot STAND.
Guildy or Ros says: The intent of that scene was two-fold
Guildy or Ros says: 1. For Rukia to beat some 'oomph' into his limp ass
Guildy or Ros says: 2. For Orihime to see what was going on
Guildy or Ros says: Orihime saw what Rukia did, and realized that it was something that she couldn't do
Guildy or Ros says: That was what prompted her sudden spurt of jealousy towards Rukia, and her subsequent confession to Matsu
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo's reaffirmation to Orihime wasn't about "IchiHime" at all
Guildy or Ros says: It was Rukia seeing that he was frightened and cowed, and felt like a failure
Guildy or Ros says: And by taking him to Orihime and facing up to what he'd been shying away from, she gave him something to aim for again
Guildy or Ros says: That's why Orihime said 'He's back to his old self'
Guildy or Ros says: Because she kicked the fight back INTO him
Guildy or Ros says: THOSE two things are what that scene is about.
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo felt weak because he felt he had no control over what was happening to him re: the hollow, his friends getting clocked, etc
Guildy or Ros says: But his overweaning fear was what was really crippling him
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia saw the fear and moved to dispel it. Thus the chapter title "Punch down the stone circle"
Guildy or Ros says: She moved to "punch" down his fear and reluctance to talk.
Guildy or Ros says: That in a nutshell is why she dragged him to talk to Orihime.
Guildy or Ros says: She forced him to be honest and strong to the people he felt obligated to protect.

Renji and Rukia / IchiRuki vs. RenRuki:

Jaimie says: renji's feelings for rukia in the present? he's still in love with her, right? but he's totally ok with his position right now
Jaimie says: do you think they could happen? after their falling out
Guildy or Ros says: Renji's still in love with Rukia, I think
Guildy or Ros says: But Renji can see what's happening
Guildy or Ros says: Renji was deluding himself thinking that all he had to do was become strong enough to pay his respects to a captain's sister and it would all be hunky-dory again
Guildy or Ros says: He never thought that Rukia would get caught up with anything like this
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo vs. Renji showed which of them had the BURNING MANLY DESIRE and not only the desire
Guildy or Ros says: The COURAGE to stand up and claim it
Guildy or Ros says: Renji admitted to himself, that while he pines after Rukia and stares, he doesn't have the balls to make a move for her Guildy or Ros says: Renji could love Rukia his whole life, but if he doesn't have the stones to make a move, is it her fault if she falls in love somewhere else?
Guildy or Ros says: That's why Renji was so PISSED at Ichigo at first
Guildy or Ros says: But then he was forced to acknowledge him. Ichigo tossing Rukia to Renji was Ichigo acknowledging that Renji was desperate to help Rukia, but he hadn't the sheer FORCE to do what had to be done
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo has the feeling, the force and the COURAGE required to actually stand up and say "Hey bitch, I'm hauling your ass out on a sling"
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo will stand against Rukia, but more than that Jaimie says: so basically, renji can't pwn rukia? D:
Jaimie says: no mutual pwnage = no relationship?
Guildy or Ros says: EXACTLY
Guildy or Ros says: Renji cannot pwn Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: Because he just doesn't have the balls for it.
Guildy or Ros says: And he as much as admitted it.
Guildy or Ros says: But, more than that
Guildy or Ros says: Renji made a decision for the both of them, that Rukia didn't want
Guildy or Ros says: But he made it anyway because he thought that she'd be better off
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo doesn't try to force his decisions on the both of them.
Guildy or Ros says: Example--
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo may be thinking to himself that Rukia would be better off in the human world, and he may want her to stay with him
Guildy or Ros says: But when Rukia starts to tell him 'I'm going to stay in SS' he DOESN'T cut her off
Guildy or Ros says: Ex. Rukia: "They asked me to join the Kuchiki clan."
Guildy or Ros says: Renji: (OH SHIT_)
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia: "....Renji...I do---"
Guildy or Ros says: Renji: "OMFG THATS GREAT YOU'RE GONNA BE RICH" As opposed to:
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo: "Well, pack it up, we're going back home in a bit."
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia: "....Well, I guess I should tell you"
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo: (OH SHIT)
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia: "I've decided to stay in SS."
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo: ".....Well, if you can honestly make that decision I think it's good."
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo knows when to pwn Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: And Ichigo knows when to let Rukia make her own decisions
Guildy or Ros says: And that is the difference.
Guildy or Ros says: Renji knows Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: But does he understand her, really? I don't know
Guildy or Ros says: I don't think anyone understands Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: But the difference is just that simple.
Guildy or Ros says: Renji can't pwn Rukia because he never -tries-.
Guildy or Ros says: He's afraid to try. More on Rukia's selflessness:
Guildy or Ros says: Rukia's so suicidally selfless that she doesn't even stop to even get in Renji's face about him packing her off to Byakuya Guildy or Ros says: She just takes him back because....HEY
Guildy or Ros says: Renji wants to be friends again! OK!
Guildy or Ros says: OH! Nii-sama is talking to me and says he's sorry about trying to kill me
Guildy or Ros says: THAT MAKES IT OK THEN, ALL IS FORGOTTEN
Guildy or Ros says: <3 <3 <3 Nii-sama
Guildy or Ros says: On her FUCKING DEATH SENTENCE
Guildy or Ros says: ON THE SCAFFOLD
Guildy or Ros says: She's looking at Byakuya who is LOOKING AWAY BECAUSE HE CAN'T BEAR TO WATCH
Guildy or Ros says: And she thinks "He can't look at me because he's ashamed of how frightened I am"
Guildy or Ros says: This is how Rukia sees people.
Guildy or Ros says: Perpetually better than her.
Guildy or Ros says: Especially Byakuya. BONUS: Guildy's thoughts on "shipping" IchiRuki Jaimie says: so when did you start shipping ichiruki D:
Guildy or Ros says: I've never 'shipped' IchiRuki : I just read the fucking manga
Guildy or Ros says: No, no, 'shipping' is Aaro/Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: Ichi/Ruki is just....OK
Guildy or Ros says: Guildy's Steps for Ichigo/Rukia
Guildy or Ros says: 1. Find manga in JP
Guildy or Ros says: 2. Open manga
Guildy or Ros says: 3. Find words
Guildy or Ros says: 4. Read
Guildy or Ros says: 5. Repeat as needed
Guildy or Ros says: Yeah, I don't ship it
Guildy or Ros says: It's just written in there
Guildy or Ros says: I don't 'ship', I just fucking read
Guildy or Ros says: 'Shipping' is Byakuya/Renji

Bonus. Some things that weren't on the BA post but in the original chat, highly edited because Guildy cusses too much but included here because she speaks my heart about symbolism and western audiences and the "death of the author."

About symbolism:


Guildy or Ros says: You can't compare the two {note--the subject was harry potter and Bleach!}
Guildy or Ros says: HP isn't a visual work. >_>
Guildy or Ros says: It's a valid argument to discuss symbolism IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A MOTHERFUCKING VISUAL MEDIUM
Jaimie says: well it seems like if you discuss symbolism, opposition will say that you're reading too much into it .-.
Guildy or Ros says: There's discussing a symbol
Guildy or Ros says: And then there's beating a symbol to death
Guildy or Ros says: The trick is to learn when to stop analysing and to grant the cigar permission to be just a cigar
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: If I draw symbolism in a picture, you'll see it in the picture. I do it a lot.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: What you won't see is complex mathematical angles to make up some kind of fucking fairy bridge to prove two characters are knocking boots.
Guildy or Ros says: And that, my friend, is the difference between 'discussing a symbol' and 'beating a symbol to death'
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I have a character who's associated with water. There's a lot of water-looking shit I draw in pictures with him. But as Guildy puts it, I'm not gonna draw a ton of cracks in the wall behind him to imply the shape of a water molecule.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: He'll be doing something sensible, like, I dunno, oh, STANDING IN WATER or something.
Jaimie says: http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3998/bridgevf8.jpg
Jaimie says: i really wonder where she gets these ideas
Guildy or Ros says: I know where she gets them
Guildy or Ros says: It's from overthinking.
Guildy or Ros says: She takes the "Orihime" reference in the name and overthinks it.
Guildy or Ros says: Orihime = Tanabata = Constellations = Ancient Chinese constellations = star positioning = OMFG SOMETIMES CHARACTERS IN BLEACH STAND AROUND IN PATTERNS VAGUELY RESEMBLING A TRIANGLE
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I think it's less overthinking and more reaching. But what gets me and what also got me with the HP alchemy hippogriff toast chocolate fuckwittery is
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: They think it's so DEEP.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Like OMG.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: They are the only ones smrt enough to SPOT IT.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: When really any author/artist/whatnot spending that much time burying hidden clues to lead a select group of rabid fangirls to a conclusion should really be concentrating on putting it in the fucking STORY maybe, I guess I'm just old fashioned. D:
Guildy or Ros says: OK, let's take ummmm
Guildy or Ros says: Ichigo and Rukia's colour symbolism
Guildy or Ros says: Which is fairly obvious.
Guildy or Ros says: Studying the symbolism would lead you to the conclusion that Kubo probably chose to put them in a dichotomy for a reason that may or may not be related to "OMFG TWOO LOVE" but most likely is more of a reflection on their 'partner' aspect.
Guildy or Ros says: OVERTHINKING it would be to find out what mythological aspects are assigned to those two colours and try to find further links to that in Bleach to try to flesh out your 'romance' angle.
Guildy or Ros says: It's just not going to cut the mustard.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: The black/white sun/moon thing is a good example because it's in the text. He draws it all the time. He points it out. He -states- that that's symbolism related to them.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: It's not a sooper speshul hidden secret. The chapter doodle sketchymabobber things are the same way. They're text.
Jaimie says: lol, i believe someone said ichigo is the moon (cause of his shikai)
Jaimie says: and orihime is the sun (cause ulquiorra said so)
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN D: D: D:
Jaimie says: OR
Jaimie says: OR
Jaimie says: they are TWO SUNS
Jaimie says: TWO BLAZING STARS
Guildy or Ros says: "THE SUN ALREADY GONE DOWN" IS NOT REFERING TO ORIHIME
Guildy or Ros says: BUT TO THE FACT THAT THE 'SUN' I.E. THEIR HOPES HAVE ALREADY BEEN PWNT TO UTTER SHIT AND THAT THEY CANNOT HOPE TO BEAT THE ESPADA
Guildy or Ros says: UNTIL I SEE A FUCKING DRAWING
Guildy or Ros says: FROM KUBO
Guildy or Ros says: OR A SENTENCE
Guildy or Ros says: FROM KUBO
Guildy or Ros says: SPECIFICALLY REFERRING TO ORIHIME AS 'THE PINK SUN' OR WHATEVER
Jaimie says: i believe further proof was... hmm...
Jaimie says: when ulquiorra went to abduct her
Jaimie says: and killed those shinigami
Jaimie says: she healed thm
Jaimie says: and her healing bubble looked like a sunset
Jaimie says: or sunrise... w/e...
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Guildy keeps forgetting that everything symbolises Orihime. D:
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Flowers.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: The sky.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: The sun.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Those little potatoes your mother likes.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Everything.
Guildy or Ros says: YOU ARE INTERROGATING THIS TEXT
Guildy or Ros says: FROM THE WRONG PERSPECTIVE
Guildy or Ros says: YOU DOUCHENOZZLE
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Now, now. Douchenozzles are highly symbolic.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: They represent the cleansing fire Orihime and Ichigo must pass through before coming together with a single piercing cry.
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: Like...eagles or something.
Jaimie says: rofl
Guildy or Ros says: Ros: I cried a little at that eagle thing, when I first heard it. I'm not sure if it was from pain or hilarity.

About Western fandom:


Guildy or Ros says: Western fans are inherently entitled
Guildy or Ros says: To think that their interpretation of what they read is just as valid as the correct one
Guildy or Ros says: And so far that they feel entitled to castigate the author for not 'playing along'
Guildy or Ros says: That's just how the cookie crumbles
Guildy or Ros says: People talk about the 'death of the author'
Guildy or Ros says: I don't buy that shit.
Guildy or Ros says: There's a way that every story is meant to be read
Guildy or Ros says: The desires of the reader are entirely separate from the desires of the author
Guildy or Ros says: And are NEVER EVER superimposed upon them
Guildy or Ros says: Or forced to be accepted on equal footing.
Guildy or Ros says: To do otherwise is the most gross arrogance and crudeness in the whole fucking world.


me: And there you have it. Go to town or ignore. I love Guildenstern. We would be wed were it not for the fact that I already have a husband, a boyfriend (Kubo) and am in love with a half dozen fictional characters, most notably Ishida Uryuu.





 
 
 
V to the A to the D-E-R (Vader!)jaina on February 6th, 2008 07:37 pm (UTC)
Guildy or Ros says:
Ros: Also Ichigo is not a bitch for telling Rukia her opinions are null and void or that he's here to save her and she might as well STFU or ect. ect. >_>
Guildy or Ros says:
Ros: Maybe it's because NICE GIRLS DON'T GIVE BOYS SHIT, OH NOES D:


GOD. SERIOUSLY.

There are some really excellent points here. I wish to offer up many internets and babies to them.
like a puzzle: [bleach-rukia] we're aloneunedited on February 6th, 2008 07:57 pm (UTC)
I can't believe I wrote all of this at work
FROM THE DESK OF A NON-ICHIGO/RUKIA FAN WHO HAPPENS TO BE AN ICHIGO/ORIHIME FAN:

I only skimmed (at work, la) and it seems like everything I agree with is couched with something I disagree with. The reason why I don't care for Ichigo/Rukia is because of precisely these reasons why y'all do, and the reason why I do like Ichigo/Orihime is because I'm seeing all the same things y'all do! XD That's why fandom discussions are fun? But please excuse me if I just failed to read closely enough to notice something.

I'm not a fan of Ichigo/Rukia because their relationship has been emphasized, again and again, and in all this time I've never seen anything in it except a (beautiful) friendship -- she'll reassure him, he'll accept it, and they'll move on; he'll bonk her in the head, she'll stop moping, and they'll move on. I agree about the sister connection, but I think it works the other way around. Yes, of his sisters, Ichigo empathizes more with Karin, the sulky tomboy sister, but to me the fact that Karin and Rukia share so many traits puts Rukia in the seat next to Karin in the "sister" box. She's part of his family -- the family that knocks him around and yells at him. But on the other hand, Yuzu is the sister who makes home home. Yuzu is the one who takes after Ichigo's mother, who was his world, and whose death (and his inability to protect her) made Ichigo into the tough guy he is today. And Orihime is the one who would remind Ichigo of his mother.

I'm also a fan of Ichigo/Orihime because right now if they got into a relationship, it'd be screwed up; he'd be the hero, she'd be the fangirl, and that would not fulfill either of them. But I also see that their relationship has been evolving during the HM arc: Orihime's feelings have deepened and grown strained as she saw hints of Ichigo/Rukia, and Ichigo's determination to rescue her has been tinted with genuine sorrow and regret over her understandable reaction to his Hollow form. But Orihime also became determined not to be a burden on him during this arc; at some point, I hope she fulfills that promise, and becomes someone who is willing to stand beside Ichigo -- at which time she'll be a better partner for him, in my mind, than Rukia. Rukia will always be in danger, that's her job. But Ichigo's entire character is based around a need to protect, and I don't see that changing just because he fell for a girl who likes to slice up Hollows. Orihime is more what I imagine when I think of him settling down: someone who can defend herself, will defend herself, but will only do so when there's no other way.

But again -- I don't see that happening now, and I didn't see it happening until this arc. Until then I classified Ichigo/Orihime as a crack... ship, and I didn't like to pair Ichigo with anyone.

(I've been avoiding the word "ship" because I feel like some sort of line has been drawn in the sand. XD )

I like plenty of ridiculous pairings and I don't see why it has to be a bad thing. Ichigo/Rukia is a ship just like Ichigo/Orihime. It can't be more than "a ship" until it becomes "canon," and that requires a positively-received confession or making out, or something else that is on the page and undeniable to anyone who is reading -- and not just particular people who are reading. I feel like if Ichigo/Rukia is some undeniable force of nature that transcends shippiness to all who see it on the page, we must not have been reading the same thing, because as far as I can tell, it's just a theory.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 08:35 pm (UTC)
Re: I can't believe I wrote all of this at work


<3 to you. *THROWS KISSES AND CANDIES IN YOUR DIRECTION BECAUSE YOU IS NOT A FANDOM BRAT*

I totally dig your response, especially the part about if Ichigo and Orihime got together now it would be a wreck of inequality but that sort of pairing is really a staple of romance lit. So you see, the ship isn't inconceivable to me, but as someone who's seen IchiRuki as a romance motif in the story (I didn't until a year and a half ago--I could roll with the friendship angle then but not now--reasons too many to go into here), I'd have to see LOTS of story and LOTS of development between Ichigo and Orihime to be persuaded. I'm not sure Kubo has the time or werewithall or (and I apologize to those puritans who don't believe audience and merchandising don't drive plot) the fandom support to do so.

Your Ichigo and Orihime theory relies a lot on compatability factors, which is fine--that's what my Ishida and Orihime ship ideal does. There's nothing in that latter relationship that indicates imminent romance for that pair. In fact, I see Ishida-> Orihime as the boyish restrained version of Orihime--> Ichigo. But a reader deciding which two people seem to go together is matchmaking outside the text; when I'm the most honest with myself, I can't see any relationship that has consistently grown within the scope of the story (from chapter one to now) but Ichigo and Rukia's.

I think Ichigo and Orihime made a quantum leap in their relationship during the HM arc, but it was from zero to cruising speed in terms of mutual understanding. The IchiRuki friendship, even if we were to consider it just as that, is already leagues beyond imv.

Bickering and "mutual pwnage" as Guildy calls is is standard fare in romance lit too. The two ships, IchiRuki and IchiOri, value some very disparate things in couplehood it seems

I like plenty of ridiculous pairings and I don't see why it has to be a bad thing. Ichigo/Rukia is a ship just like Ichigo/Orihime. It can't be more than "a ship" until it becomes "canon," and that requires a positively-received confession or making out, or something else that is on the page and undeniable to anyone who is reading -- and not just particular people who are reading. I feel like if Ichigo/Rukia is some undeniable force of nature that transcends shippiness to all who see it on the page, we must not have been reading the same thing, because as far as I can tell, it's just a theory.

Hey, you're talking to the woman who ships yaoi HARD and finds textual support for some of her (granted, unlikely to become canon) pairings. Never said shipping of any sort was a bad thing. In fact, I occasionally get into trouble with yaoi fangirls who fail to realize that I distinguish between my playing outside canon (fanfic) and "wish shipping" with the game of actually reading the manga and guessing its course. In fact, I've had postmodern voodoo thrown in my face as to the very outrageousness of my daring to presume I can guess an author's intent.

"Just a theory" in itself is a judgemental phrase. In the wacky world of free-for-all interpretation it implies that there is no quantatitive truth, and that's where diehards like Guildy and I go "uh-uh--some theories carry more weight than others." I always like to say that all opinions are valuable but no valid . Truly, the Papa (Isshin/Ryuuken) fandom has enriched my enjoyment of Bleach the way lots of Kubo-canon hasn't. But I don't see it--and the reason I don't see it is because I don't think its there.

I can imagine it, though, and that's not only NOT bad, it's beautiful.
Re: I can't believe I wrote all of this at work - unedited on February 6th, 2008 09:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I can't believe I wrote all of this at work - jaina on February 6th, 2008 10:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I can't believe I wrote all of this at work - escarboucle on February 7th, 2008 07:02 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kit-chan: book reading or random musingschiave_trust on February 6th, 2008 08:47 pm (UTC)
Hrm, I guess I'm in a in-between view; author intent is all well and good, but I've enough experience with poetry and stories (yes, I know, non-visual, cut it out) to know that sometimes, person B reads over person's A piece, and person B has an observation/wondering/speculation; and person A looks at the piece again, and goes "Damn, I didn't mean to do that, but looking at it now, it does sound cool."

You can do this with 'canon' and relationship setups and such too - there are instances wherein the author intends something, but doesn't set it up properly, and so the intended plot action seems to come out of nowhere, break character, etc. But to discuss that one involves discussing ships and that's one boat I don't want to get on. Or touch with a hundred-foot pole.

Or whatever.

On the other hand, dismissing author-intent and insisting your own reading is right, however speculative, has problems with it, as succinctly pointed out.


So is there a middle ground, or is there just a slippery slope, an all-or-nothing stance? That, I think, is the question.

Edited at 2008-02-06 08:51 pm (UTC)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 11:36 pm (UTC)

Hmm, I'm all for middle ground. I'm all for a bad metaphor: the relationship between author and reader is a dance. The author leads, though.
(no subject) - chiave_trust on February 7th, 2008 08:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
 la vie élastique: ICHIRUKI - smackshuimei on February 6th, 2008 09:38 pm (UTC)
LOLights for me:
"hey, niisama's kind of a prick"
"oh damn, kaien-dono used to not be batshit fucking insane"
"Ichigo has been hard gay for Rukia for a while"


and Guildenstern is on fucking point when she says that people interpret Rukia's refusal to give in, to be protected as "bitchy." I've said this again and again but if Rukia was not a girl and instead had a freaking pair of balls then people wouldn't blink twice and raise a shit about half the stuff she says and does.

Nevertheless, because she is a girl, because she does challenge Ichigo, who by most standards possesses many typical alpha male personality traits and is the shounen hero, people get uncomfortable seeing a female challenge/beat up on their idealized male figure, who is supposed to be omgrawrstrong and take shit from no one, especially not from some "bitchy" girl who isn't even five feet tall.

Anyway I loved the entire thing and agreed with most, if not all of it. Thanks for sharing that with us ♥

AND THAT FUCKING BRIDGE BLEW MY FUCKING MIND.
I HAVE NO WORDS. NO WORDS FOR THAT.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 11:57 pm (UTC)

I actually like that bridge diagram. I mean, it's so OUT THERE. It's like peeking at some religious ritual from the outside just to look at it. I admire the imagination it took to create it but I just don't have the faith.
(no subject) - shuimei on February 7th, 2008 12:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
tsubaki99tsubaki99 on February 6th, 2008 09:45 pm (UTC)
"Ichigo has been hard gay for Rukia for a while, even if he didn't know it"

LOL XD

I seriously laughed with the entire Chat/Entry thing I love these guys XD
(Deleted comment)
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)


Rukia hates herself for her actions, Orihime hates herself for her inactions (being unable to protect her friends, etc.)?

I agree here. Another interesting difference between the girls.

I know about as many Rukia will die theories out there as Orihime will die theories. Funny thing that either girls dying is conceivable but Ichigo dying isn't. But when I consider these theories, I always remember that this is BLEACH, and nobody dies.
(no subject) - spanky_o on February 7th, 2008 07:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Manda: Orihime squee omg awesome!abandonreality on February 6th, 2008 11:34 pm (UTC)
This was fabulous and I enjoyed their humor and wit and... INTELLIGENCE so freakin' much.

I have my share of crack ships that I KNOW are ships, but are interesting in fanfiction BECAUSE you wonder how it would work in canon, even though there is no way it would happen. Ren/Ichi is one of those examples for me.

I've never been an IchiHime person for the exact reasons stated by them, only I've never been as witty or bright enough to put it that way. There are only TWO people I can see Ichigo ending up with in the manga: Rukia and Tatsuki. Both treat him close to the same way, the only reason why Tatsuki is lower on the totem pole is that she doesn't have the power or ability to BE his equal right now (although I'm WISHING KUBO DAMMIT).

This was so fun, Deb, I'd love to see more from them.
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 11:54 pm (UTC)

I'd like to see more of Guildy here too but she doesn't do LJ... cuz of an ethical principle I believe but I may be wrong. XD

I'll see what I can do. Maybe I can lure the girls out with translation issues and porn.
Hikaru Asakura: ishihimegifhikaruasakura on February 6th, 2008 11:35 pm (UTC)
Well, about the Ichiruki relationship, I agree almost in everything, especially about Rukia's behaviour towards Ichigo.

but...
"...Guildy thinks Ishida needs to "grow a pair" before she'll consider the IshiHime ship..."

Sad, but I think that my favorite ship is in a middle of a rough storm...after SS arc, Ishihime is in a danger of inmminent destruction. But I will not give up. T_T
_debbiechan__debbiechan_ on February 6th, 2008 11:52 pm (UTC)

Oh I'm profoundly optimistic about my favorite pairing's chances in canon. Don't have much but their chemistry in SS, what appears to be a huge set-up on Kubo's part that demands resolution (Ishida's feelings are canon, as far as I'm concerned--I won't even be diplomatic and consider they're not. Ishida's crushing on Orihime is as canon to me as Kenpachi liking to fight), and some inklings of what makes aesthetic sense for Kubo's story--these things give me hope.

Aesthetic sense? Eh, I think IchiRuki is a given, and since Orihime's story can't be a tragedy, I do believe that Orihime will learn something about herself that allows her to keep some of her fairytale charm. Look, Ishida is a white knight--he's not a real person, he's a type in that regard and he fits with Orihime in ways Ichigo doesn't. Not your hero of the story but hero of his own story, Ishida's an insecure shounen KID who sees himself as a white knight, but yeah, he's got superpowers and he ain't afraid to use them. There seems to be an aesthetic balance in a resolution that "rewards" Orihime with Ishida. Fans may bitch about her "settling" and the awfulness of that, but I think Kubo is mature enough to write emotionally satisfying endings to these pairing issues he's been playing with. The pairing itself, I believe, won't be the answer--but whatever Ishida and Orihime discover about themselves after all they've been through in Bleach.

The "growing up" is more important than the "making out" haha in a shounen story.
windxalchemist on February 7th, 2008 12:55 am (UTC)
*speechles*
win<33
Shaye: grimmjow smilesspanky_o on February 7th, 2008 01:39 am (UTC)
I'm in the middle of a meeting, which I'm supposed to be completely engrossed in, but I happen to be more interested in this than the meeting agenda.

All I can say right now is that I'm seeing IchigoxRukia in a whole different fashion.

Back to pretending to pay attention...
Bunnisteffi lay flayrah u silflay.: Whatchalookinat?bunnisteffi on February 7th, 2008 04:54 pm (UTC)
Goodness. Guildy is <3.

This is why I love the Bleach fanpeeps. There're people who do these kinda things that move me along. Seeing how others put into words what I already *know* is... gratifying.

It's hard not to be even more of a Bleach 'reader' after this. (Read: shipper) Certainly helps that my Japanese-reading is getting better.

Fufufufufufufu...

Thanks, debbiechan!

Bunnisteffi
Have Fun Storming the Castle!annieroo2 on February 7th, 2008 06:14 pm (UTC)
I got such a kick out of this. Thanks for sharing it with us! It makes me wish I could read Bleach in it's original Japanese version.

I fear poor translations are where many of the character misconceptions come from when people claim what is CANON. Although I think wishful thinking is also a part of it.

Regardless of what Kubo means in the subtext, I'm content to enjoy Bleach as written (and translated umpteen different ways) until such time as he decides if he wants anyone to be Ichigo's main squeeze.
cavisze: new year!cavisze on February 7th, 2008 08:08 pm (UTC)
Whether IchiRuki is canon or not, I enjoy their dynamic and think that right now, their coupledom makes the most sense and has the greatest potential, even if they are both pretty immature and clueless when it comes to romantic affections. After reading the chat and some of the comments people have made, I decided to talk to my husband about the differences of opinion between the Western fandom and the Asian world. Of course, we clashed heads (hrm, white boy vs. a chinese mindset) and interestingly enough, he thought along the likes of kay_willow.

I think, "Of course they will end up together! Look at how they work! Rukia knows exactly how to deal with Ichigo, and he actually responds to her. Ichigo can't obliviously disregard her, because she won't let him. They have an intimate comraderie!"

But he thinks, "That's the problem! They're combat buddies! We 'westerners' look at their love triangle and think to ourselves, Jesus, Ichigo is totally f---ing up! Orihime is pouring her heart out to him and being affectionate, and he is being a loser and ruining that relationship!"

He pointed out to me, that the role of Rukia could easily be replaced by someone who literally has balls, and then Ichigo could go for Orihime. And even though Rukia is a female character, she should still only have the role of 'combat buddy' and be the one to knock sense into him, because she does not and (because of her personality) probably will not ever demand romantic emotion from him.

Orihime, on the other hand, wants to draw attention and affection from Ichigo. She does not act at all like some alpha-female, and as a man, that is what Ichigo ultimately needs so that his life isn't all just one big battlefield.

While those are not exactly invalid points, my own heartstrings cannot go there. I see that the relationship between Ichigo and Rukia functions and is efficient; they draw the confidence and reassurance that they need in life from each other. Many of my Bleach-reading companions do not think that Ichigo and Orihime would really be an ideal relationship, but they see the lack of love between Ichigo and Rukia and therefore, cannot agree to it either and do not swoon. Yet, my Asian girlfriends and I giggle whenever Ichigo gets a spirited kick and murmur amongst ourselves that we would most definitely see Ichigo with Rukia than Orihime.

We are all nerds in one field or another, so of course we acknowledge authorial intent and realize that the would-be love interests were made very clear in the beginning, as often done in shounen. Is it more than an amusing obersvation though, that the western fans I am exposed to, long for Ichigo to sweep Orihime off her feet because Rukia lacks romance and is not seemingly feminine emough?

And of course, so that no one is offended, my husband and his viewpoints do not accurately represent all Western Fandom; nor do I represent all Chinese/Asian views. We (especially I) just tend to generalize things because we spend too much of our life analyzing arrogant writers and writing social psych dissertations.
(Anonymous) on February 8th, 2008 03:04 am (UTC)
Guildenstern here. I don't have an LJ so I have to comment anonymously. I wish I could say it was because I had some kind of huge over-arching ethical issue with LJ, but to be honest, I simply find LJ administration distasteful and I'd prefer not to use their service. Debbie's giving me too much credit. >__>;

Just posting to clear up a few points:

1. I never ever compared Ichigo's relationship with Karin to his relationship with Rukia. The two relationships are very different. I think the point Ros was trying to make by bringing up Ichigo's sisters is that Ichigo feels freer to show more of his true feelings around the 'tougher' sister as opposed to hiding them around the 'cute' sister-- just an example to show the kind of person Ichigo tends to feel more comfortable being more open with, nothing more than that. The "Rukia = sister" argument kind of cracks me up because Ichigo would probably strike himself dead before calling one of his little sisters a 'dumbass'.

2. The 'just read the manga' thing was in no way a slight against anyone-- just commentary in the vein of the fact that if you read the manga straight up without embellishing it or trying to read anything into it, you tend to come up with 'Ichigo is kind of gay for Rukia'. It's kind of evinced by the fact that Ichigo/Rukia is so popular-- people picking up Bleach and blowing through it all at once without stopping up to the current chapter receive that impression because they don't have to wait a week between installments to think about it. XD Certainly, the direction of the manga may change in the future, but for now just reading the manga straight-up tends to overwhelmingly produce that viewpoint.

3. I agree that Rukia is a person who feels guilt very acutely, but self-hate is a little too strong, I think. Your milage may vary.

4. People give me and Ros way too much credit for being 'intelligent' and 'witty' when what you SHOULD have said was....well, over on BA I've been affectionately referred to as 'irritatingly retarded'. I feel that's more honest. .... >_>;; But if you're all entertained then I guess idiocy is its own reward. Much obliged to you all for taking the time to read our ramblings, even if I never thought of posting it for other people to read.

Shine on, you crazy diamonds!
~Lolly McB. Guildenstern-- Drunkard, esq.

virkalleavirkallea on February 8th, 2008 09:12 am (UTC)
"Irritatingly retarded", hah, do I even have to ask which bitter fans said that?

RE: Rukia as Ichigo's sister, yeah I don't understand where people come from with that. It's like how I heard one person call Rukia Ichigo's "grandmother"... which is even more laughable. I'd actually like to hear someone's views on this because right now the only reasoning I can come up with is people want to force Rukia into that position in order to eliminate any possibility that Ichigo might be "hard gay for Rukia". :P
marionette71088: pic#70705042marionette71088 on February 8th, 2008 05:26 pm (UTC)
"Ros: Rukia thinks of other people, and the self vanishes in that.
Ros: Orihime thinks of other people, and the self is magnified."

This line owns my world; it's exactly how I'd like to put it. I see Orihime's "self hate" as what we commonly call self-consciousness, it really all roots from caring too much about your self image. Her life/mind-set is obviously more complicated than most teenagers, but in a sense it is still a very "teenage" problem.

Rukia's problem is more twisted (and the completely opposite); she pretty much disregards herself. I think there are mixed factor that led to this selflessness: a lot of it it's just because that she cares a lot about being shinigami - she seem to think that throwing herself in front of stranger to take their blow is just what you do. I can't imagine that Kaien or Ukitake would teach her that, and she seems to share that belief with Byakuya. I don’t necessarily think that Byakuya “forced” those ideas on her, as much as that she willingly looked at Byakuya and agreed with his beliefs - selflessness as a shinigami, faith in the law, and this is a huge part of why she <3<3<3 her Nii-sama so much. She's been through shit in her childhood, almost all her friends died before reaching adulthood, she was powerless in a lawless world. Now she's a shingami, now she's found someone like Byakuya, so she absolutely embraced this chance to make herself "useful" in protecting others like her with all she has.

I think she also just have low self-esteem, period, too, but I think her beliefs (shinigami, Byakuya) is a part of that that hasn't been mentioned, which isn’t necessity negative in itself depend on how you look at it. She obviously has huge guilt problems too, which I suspect that she has before Kaien's death.